2014 rookie class

[flgreen]

Adams is another one, it's like we could go on all day talking about the stud WRs in this class and after reading every scouting report and watching film on every WR...we came away with Shaq Evans, Jalen Saunders, and Quincy Enunwa...:smiley-angry021:

Most of the old board loved Idzik unconditionally, but his decision making was so piss poor I never understood the love affairs.

Think a lot of people started getting suspicious after the draft. I know I did. Was very happy with the Ivory trade. And of course getting the cap under control. (Most of it were no brainer's, but still)

The draft was the big major clue that Idzik was way over his head. It was all downhill after that.

 

[Superman55]

sigh....

you gonna start with this stuff again???

most of the old board didn't love idzik unconditionally. there were many who said it was too early to make a judgment on him after only 1 or 2 years, but most of those who took this position (myself included) also said they'd be fine moving on from him. it seems you were the only one who perceived unconditional love, as if it we didn't have the pitchforks and torches lit, we were his groupies.

also, YOU loved the draft class at first. you raved about how pryor was great, amaro was the next witten, mcdougle was a stud, etc... yes, you did call for them drafting a WR sooner, and i will tip my hat to you on being one of the first members to jump on the montcreif bandwagon. of course, you said benjamin would be a bust, so maybe you aren't the all-seeing swami you claim to be. but let's not pretend that you didn't love the draft class before you hated the draft class. you may want to try and impress the people who don't know you, but there are plenty here from the old board(s) who recall you loving these picks before hating them

Well, I said on another thread on the new board i didn't like benjamin (I loved him after Panthers mini camp though and immediately knew I was wrong after he moved in with Cam, Benjamin is a hard working good guy of the NFL, I do really like him now).

I dont know if Im trying to impress anyone, if I was trying to do that, I'd post a picture of myself naked.

Nevertheless, asking for more than 2 years of idzik would be like asking for more than 2 years of Kotite...sure, it may be fair to give them more than 2 years, but what did you see in the first 2 years to not be able to make a conscious decision to move on? Like Kotite, the proof was in the pudding, this wasn't the job for him...

 

[Superman55]

Think a lot of people started getting suspicious after the draft. I know I did. Was very happy with the Ivory trade. And of course getting the cap under control. (Most of it were no brainer's, but still)

The draft was the big major clue that Idzik was way over his head. It was all downhill after that.

Honestly, the evidence was in the first draft, but the Richardson pick working out over shadowed Milliner, Geno, and Winters...

I was really hoping McDougle could be another Ray Mickens; and maybe he will be, but 2 years out of organized football is a long time to go and assume you can get your timing back. I now think we need to draft another CB high.

I do give Idzik credit for Harvin, Ivory, and Decker...great moves, drafting Richardson and Amaro looks like home runs also. But Gia RT, Goodson RB, Dimitri Patterson CB (one of the worst Jets signing ever, right there with trading for Tebow), and Winters, Pryor, Milliner, and Geno all look like huge swings and misses (who takes a box safety #18 )...

Now, new coaches may turn all these guys into studs, I do look forward to seeing what diamonds Bowles and staff can mold from this crop if any...

 

[hobson54]

fine, idzik didn't work out and it was time to move on. i'm ok with that. i didn't have a problem with him being fired and am happy we turned the page on the entire old regime.

my point was more that you insist on painting people in extremes by saying things like "most of the old board loved idzik unconditionally". this just wasn't the case, it terms of "most" or "loved him unconditionally"

for you, it's always one extreme or the other. if someone doesn't bash idzik relentlessly, you called them his children or some other demeaning thing.

 

[hobson54]

Honestly, the evidence was in the first draft, but the Richardson pick working out over shadowed Milliner, Geno, and Winters...

I was really hoping McDougle could be another Ray Mickens; and maybe he will be, but 2 years out of organized football is a long time to go and assume you can get your timing back. I now think we need to draft another CB high.

I do give Idzik credit for Harvin, Ivory, and Decker...great moves, drafting Richardson and Amaro looks like home runs also. But Gia RT, Goodson RB, Dimitri Patterson CB (one of the worst Jets signing ever, right there with trading for Tebow), and Winters, Pryor, Milliner, and Geno all look like huge swings and misses (who takes a box safety [URL=http://nyjetsfanatics.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 8[/URL] )...

Now, new coaches may turn all these guys into studs, I do look forward to seeing what diamonds Bowles and staff can mold from this crop if any...

look who loved the pick at the time...


http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=65&f=1875&t=12868195&p=9


Jetman55 wrote:

cysporsche wrote: I think the Pryor pick is excellent; however, I honestly wonder if Odell Beckham Jr. WR was not our intended target @ 18. Last year we targeted Austin WR & Mingo OLB and ended up with neither pick. I would love to see the Jets big board in the war room.


I'm with you. I think Beckham was our #1 target just like Austin was last year. Beckham passes the Idzik test with flying colors: high character with an awesome background based on a strong up bringing from his parents. He is a strong locker room guy that is regarded as a team first player with a off the charts football IQ since he's been around the LSU football program since birth. He is regarded as very coachable and wants to be great.

However, I personally view Pryor as our 1b pick that is a TJ Ward clone in my eyes. TJ Ward lays the wood. one of my favorite hits of his was in the pro bowl last year when he laid out teammate Josh Gordon. He doesn't care who you are, meet the ground, . That's my type of player. And Ward hits so hard people underrate his coverage ability and make the mistake of testing his coverage skills. It's not the strongest part of his game with only 5 career picks, but that's an area Pryor may turn out to be better than Ward.

People may not know this about Pryor, but he started as a freshman and sophomore because of his CF coverage skills. He actually had 2 INTs as a true freshman including a monster bowl game as a freshman where he had 4 tackles and a big INT. It wasn't until half way through his Jr year they moved him into the box. Pryor was a natural CF before being known as the in the box killer he now is. I think Rex is going to mix things up with Pryor like the Steelers did with a young Troy where just when you think he's in the box about to blitz or play the run, he's in the flat making an easy INT on the screen pass you thought was the perfect call to beat the blitz.

He's a special talent, no doubt. And if you ask 51 and Cy, I sent a message the morning of the draft that Idzik will draft his Earl Thomas, Calvin Pryor today...and he did.

Also note, ironic, Richard Sherman and Calvin Pryor; Communication majors.

 

[flgreen]

look who loved the pick at the time...


http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=65&f=1875&t=12868195&p=9


Jetman55 wrote:

cysporsche wrote: I think the Pryor pick is excellent; however, I honestly wonder if Odell Beckham Jr. WR was not our intended target @ 18. Last year we targeted Austin WR & Mingo OLB and ended up with neither pick. I would love to see the Jets big board in the war room.


I'm with you. I think Beckham was our #1 target just like Austin was last year. Beckham passes the Idzik test with flying colors: high character with an awesome background based on a strong up bringing from his parents. He is a strong locker room guy that is regarded as a team first player with a off the charts football IQ since he's been around the LSU football program since birth. He is regarded as very coachable and wants to be great.

However, I personally view Pryor as our 1b pick that is a TJ Ward clone in my eyes. TJ Ward lays the wood. one of my favorite hits of his was in the pro bowl last year when he laid out teammate Josh Gordon. He doesn't care who you are, meet the ground, . That's my type of player. And Ward hits so hard people underrate his coverage ability and make the mistake of testing his coverage skills. It's not the strongest part of his game with only 5 career picks, but that's an area Pryor may turn out to be better than Ward.

People may not know this about Pryor, but he started as a freshman and sophomore because of his CF coverage skills. He actually had 2 INTs as a true freshman including a monster bowl game as a freshman where he had 4 tackles and a big INT. It wasn't until half way through his Jr year they moved him into the box. Pryor was a natural CF before being known as the in the box killer he now is. I think Rex is going to mix things up with Pryor like the Steelers did with a young Troy where just when you think he's in the box about to blitz or play the run, he's in the flat making an easy INT on the screen pass you thought was the perfect call to beat the blitz.

He's a special talent, no doubt. And if you ask 51 and Cy, I sent a message the morning of the draft that Idzik will draft his Earl Thomas, Calvin Pryor today...and he did.

Also note, ironic, Richard Sherman and Calvin Pryor; Communication majors.

LOL

Oh well, the interwebz strikes again

 

[Superman55]

fine, idzik didn't work out and it was time to move on. i'm ok with that. i didn't have a problem with him being fired and am happy we turned the page on the entire old regime.

my point was more that you insist on painting people in extremes by saying things like "most of the old board loved idzik unconditionally". this just wasn't the case, it terms of "most" or "loved him unconditionally"

for you, it's always one extreme or the other. if someone doesn't bash idzik relentlessly, you called them his children or some other demeaning thing.

This sounds like hurt feelings over spilled milk. Idzik is gone, the point is now moot.

 

[Superman55]

LOL

Oh well, the interwebz strikes again

I liked the Sanchez pick at the time too...doesn't mean 5 years after watching him I cant say, hey, that was a bad pick.

just like some people loved the Stephen Hill pick at the time...it's okay to say after a couple years, hey, not so great of a pick.

I liked the Pryor pick at the time, what he showed us so far is he isn't a complete safety that can cover. Now, rex and thurman used him too much in coverage because our CB play was so poor, but it did expose a weakness in Pryor's game.

As my last sentence said, I hope Bowles and his coaching staff can get some of our younger players to turn the page and in ways Rex's regime couldn't.

 

[jets82]

Honestly, the evidence was in the first draft, but the Richardson pick working out over shadowed Milliner, Geno, and Winters...

I was really hoping McDougle could be another Ray Mickens; and maybe he will be, but 2 years out of organized football is a long time to go and assume you can get your timing back. I now think we need to draft another CB high.

I do give Idzik credit for Harvin, Ivory, and Decker...great moves, drafting Richardson and Amaro looks like home runs also. But Gia RT, Goodson RB, Dimitri Patterson CB (one of the worst Jets signing ever, right there with trading for Tebow), and Winters, Pryor, Milliner, and Geno all look like huge swings and misses (who takes a box safety #18 )...

Now, new coaches may turn all these guys into studs, I do look forward to seeing what diamonds Bowles and staff can mold from this crop if any...

I too didn't have a issue with the Milliner, Richardson, Geno and Winters draft picks of 2013. Richardson is the only reason there is any life in that draft at all. Jury is still out on Milliner and Geno I guess as well. Winters seems to be a ok back-up at most and maybe Geno is a back-up also. Guess we'll find out if Geno wins the job this season and we'll see how he plays under the new regime.

I will give Idzik slight credit for Decker and Ivory only. The Harvin trade was a huge disappointment. I say this because Idzik came from Seattle, so there is no way anyone can tell me he didn't know about the Harvin issues with Seattle during the off-season. Point being, we should of had Harvin since training camp and for the entire season. He dropped the ball on that big time IMO. Everything else Idzik did was a abomination and isn't even worth talking about.

Hopefully your right about the new regime turning Geno, Pryor, Milliner, McDougle and Amaro into true studs because we aren't looking good so far. As far as last years draft with Pryor and the guys, jury is out big time as well. Like I said, hopefully the new regime can get Pryor straight and make Amaro a true threat. Hopefully McDougle recovers and the two WRs from that draft that are left I have no faith in but hopefully they prove me wrong.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

Did our scouting department have any influence over the Jets missing out on all those WR's?

My understanding is that the Director of College Scouting, and all the individual regional scouts act as advisors to the GM in regards to drafting. Now, I realize this diverts attention away from everyone's favorite boogeyman, but sometimes I think its easier to single out one man, than to think more broadly in regards to criticism. It's not as easy to point out a bunch of nameless, faceless people who evaluated this college talent, and forwarded these evaluations on to Idzik.

And for the record, I'm not mourning the loss of Idzik. Just making an observation.

 

[jets82]

Did our scouting department have any influence over the Jets missing out on all those WR's?

My understanding is that the Director of College Scouting, and all the individual regional scouts act as advisors to the GM in regards to drafting. Now, I realize this diverts attention away from everyone's favorite boogeyman, but sometimes I think its easier to single out one man, than to think more broadly in regards to criticism. It's not as easy to point out a bunch of nameless, faceless people who evaluated this college talent, and forwarded these evaluations on to Idzik.

And for the record, I'm not mourning the loss of Idzik. Just making an observation.

I believe all or most have been killing the GM, HC, scouts and Woody for whats been going on for years now. So it hasn't all been directed at Idzik alone. I'm fairly new to this board but on JI, I have been going at it with many people about this topic. Most have agreed that Idzik alone didn't screw this up but argued that Idzik didn't have enough time make a difference or argued that he could have done it this or that way and it couldn't have been done this or that way etc-etc. So I believe Jets fans mostly agree that everyone takes a fall for the past two years. We've seemed to disagree more on how much Rex was to blame for this. Meaning the past two years and the four years before that. In which, I believe Rex deserves as much, if not more blame for this disaster and he deserved to go as much as Idzik did. Hell, I believe Rex should have been fired two years ago but the Rex debate is another topic for another day.

 

[flgreen]

Did our scouting department have any influence over the Jets missing out on all those WR's?

My understanding is that the Director of College Scouting, and all the individual regional scouts act as advisors to the GM in regards to drafting. Now, I realize this diverts attention away from everyone's favorite boogeyman, but sometimes I think its easier to single out one man, than to think more broadly in regards to criticism. It's not as easy to point out a bunch of nameless, faceless people who evaluated this college talent, and forwarded these evaluations on to Idzik.

And for the record, I'm not mourning the loss of Idzik. Just making an observation.

Great point, which brings up a very interesting situation, that is confusing the hell out of me.

As we all know, Idzik's background is in the accountant/cap end of the GM responsibility. He just didn't have much scouting background. At the time he brought in Rod Graves as his Senior Director of Football administration. Graves was supposed to be "the football guy" on the team. His background is totally in personnel.

One would think he would have heavy influence on Idzik during the draft and on FA moves. He's idzik's guy.

Remarkably enough Graves is one of the very few FO scouting types that survived the FO clean out. I of course have no knowledge of what was going on , but find it very odd that Graves is still here.

Did Idzik ignore the advise that was being given to him by his hand selected personnel guru? Did Woody force Graves on the new regime? It just doesn't make much sense to me that Graves would still be here. He seems like a major suspect in the mess

 

[jetgreen13]

Did our scouting department have any influence over the Jets missing out on all those WR's?

My understanding is that the Director of College Scouting, and all the individual regional scouts act as advisors to the GM in regards to drafting. Now, I realize this diverts attention away from everyone's favorite boogeyman, but sometimes I think its easier to single out one man, than to think more broadly in regards to criticism. It's not as easy to point out a bunch of nameless, faceless people who evaluated this college talent, and forwarded these evaluations on to Idzik.

And for the record, I'm not mourning the loss of Idzik. Just making an observation.

well mac did fired bradway.. not sure how many other heads in the scouting department have rolled since..

 

[Superman55]

Did our scouting department have any influence over the Jets missing out on all those WR's?

My understanding is that the Director of College Scouting, and all the individual regional scouts act as advisors to the GM in regards to drafting. Now, I realize this diverts attention away from everyone's favorite boogeyman, but sometimes I think its easier to single out one man, than to think more broadly in regards to criticism. It's not as easy to point out a bunch of nameless, faceless people who evaluated this college talent, and forwarded these evaluations on to Idzik.

And for the record, I'm not mourning the loss of Idzik. Just making an observation.

It is a fair point. Even the McDougle pick rex said he thought it was a round or 2 early, but Thurman loved him and Idzik respected his opinion, so they nabbed him. To your point, if Thurman didn't like him would they have passed and drafted Moncreif? Obviously, we'll never know...they drafted 3 WRs, so it's not like they "ignored" the position in the draft, and didn't have the position as a target, they just missed out on the 20 worth drafting despite drafting 3...

You never know which player was whose pick, but idzik is the guy responsible for the picks, whether Bradway, Thurman, rex, Lee, or marty recommended the pick, it doesn't matter who advises President Obama to make his decisions, ultimately, Obama is held responsible for his decisions despite who advises him; and all decisions are made by...idzik...on who we draft. He gets no free pass whether Bradway or Rex told him to make the pick...he made the pick...

 

[Superman55]

Great point, which brings up a very interesting situation, that is confusing the hell out of me.

As we all know, Idzik's background is in the accountant/cap end of the GM responsibility. He just didn't have much scouting background. At the time he brought in Rod Graves as his Senior Director of Football administration. Graves was supposed to be "the football guy" on the team. His background is totally in personnel.

One would think he would have heavy influence on Idzik during the draft and on FA moves. He's idzik's guy.

Remarkably enough Graves is one of the very few FO scouting types that survived the FO clean out. I of course have no knowledge of what was going on , but find it very odd that Graves is still here.

Did Idzik ignore the advise that was being given to him by his hand selected personnel guru? Did Woody force Graves on the new regime? It just doesn't make much sense to me that Graves would still be here. He seems like a major suspect in the mess

Pretty sure Idzik was in the Tampa scouting department.

 

[jets82]

It is a fair point. Even the McDougle pick rex said he thought it was a round or 2 early, but Thurman loved him and Idzik respected his opinion, so they nabbed him. To your point, if Thurman didn't like him would they have passed and drafted Moncreif? Obviously, we'll never know...they drafted 3 WRs, so it's not like they "ignored" the position in the draft, and didn't have the position as a target, they just missed out on the 20 worth drafting despite drafting 3...

You never know which player was whose pick, but idzik is the guy responsible for the picks, whether Bradway, Thurman, rex, Lee, or marty recommended the pick, it doesn't matter who advises President Obama to make his decisions, ultimately, Obama is held responsible for his decisions despite who advises him; and all decisions are made by...idzik...on who we draft. He gets no free pass whether Bradway or Rex told him to make the pick...he made the pick...

Lol, can't argue this point at all and agree 1000%.

 

[flgreen]

Pretty sure Idzik was in the Tampa scouting department.

He was also the WR's coach at the U of NY in Buffalo. That was like 1980. I didn't say he was totally devoid of any football knowledge. He was far from a personnel expert qualified to run an NFL franchise.

His main rise was through his education in accounting.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

It is a fair point. Even the McDougle pick rex said he thought it was a round or 2 early, but Thurman loved him and Idzik respected his opinion, so they nabbed him. To your point, if Thurman didn't like him would they have passed and drafted Moncreif? Obviously, we'll never know...they drafted 3 WRs, so it's not like they "ignored" the position in the draft, and didn't have the position as a target, they just missed out on the 20 worth drafting despite drafting 3...

You never know which player was whose pick, but idzik is the guy responsible for the picks, whether Bradway, Thurman, rex, Lee, or marty recommended the pick, it doesn't matter who advises President Obama to make his decisions, ultimately, Obama is held responsible for his decisions despite who advises him; and all decisions are made by...idzik...on who we draft. He gets no free pass whether Bradway or Rex told him to make the pick...he made the pick...

Not to get too far off sports here, but in the political world, president's have gotten tons of bad advice from their advisors. Regardless of political party. You're right, ultimately the head man gets the blame. But he also gets bad ideas thrust his way, authorizes those ideas via policy (or drafting in the case of a football GM), and ultimately lives or dies with it. They all trust their advisors/scouts, though. Sometimes to a fault.

 

[NickSINYC]

Did our scouting department have any influence over the Jets missing out on all those WR's?

My understanding is that the Director of College Scouting, and all the individual regional scouts act as advisors to the GM in regards to drafting. Now, I realize this diverts attention away from everyone's favorite boogeyman, but sometimes I think its easier to single out one man, than to think more broadly in regards to criticism. It's not as easy to point out a bunch of nameless, faceless people who evaluated this college talent, and forwarded these evaluations on to Idzik.

And for the record, I'm not mourning the loss of Idzik. Just making an observation.

Very well said

 

[Superman55]

Not to get too far off sports here, but in the political world, president's have gotten tons of bad advice from their advisors. Regardless of political party. You're right, ultimately the head man gets the blame. But he also gets bad ideas thrust his way, authorizes those ideas via policy (or drafting in the case of a football GM), and ultimately lives or dies with it. They all trust their advisors/scouts, though. Sometimes to a fault.

Well, in this example, idzik skipped a meeting with Emmanual Sanders to personally scout Amaro at his pro day, and he never met with free agent DRC when we were directly in a feeding frenzy between us and the Giants that we ultimately lost because...he was personally scouting Pryor at his pro day.

So Idzik skipped free agent visits with Emmanuel Sanders and Rodgers-Cromartie so he could personally scout the players, so above politically analogy does not apply to idzik's selections...