Do you believe?

[Superman55]

I agree.

As long as Mo shows up for minicamp later today, I will feel a lot better about the possibility of locking him up. Not overly concerned about the Cro deal since i believe it was structured so we can cut him next season with no cap hit. Does not really tie us up long term.

My thing on the cro deal isnt so much the structure, but if you can warrant paying a guy $7 mill/season that you could have locked up last year for $2.5 or $3 mill...then you should have no problem paying your mature, 25 year old player, who didn't cause a fuss when he was under paid at 23 and 24, and now at 25 wants to get locked into his long term deal. Hell, You could probably make him a Jet for life if you wanted (with a 7-8 year deal). I dont think he wants to leave New jersey, I bet he will take less than market value (Cam Jordan did, Robert Quinn's contract is way more than Jordan or Wilkerson's deals)...so I think the Jets should get it done.

He's the best dlinemen, or second best after sheldon, in the division, 2nd or 3rd best in the conference...I think the framework is there to pay him somewhere between Jordan and Quinn. Just hope it gets done. id like him to retire the jets as "one of the good guys." Like Klecko and Shaun Ellis (ellis didnt retire a jet, but he was one of teh good guys, IMO).

 

[ucrenegade]

My thing on the cro deal isnt so much the structure, but if you can warrant paying a guy $7 mill/season that you could have locked up last year for $2.5 or $3 mill...then you should have no problem paying your mature, 25 year old player, who didn't cause a fuss when he was under paid at 23 and 24, and now at 25 wants to get locked into his long term deal. Hell, You could probably make him a Jet for life if you wanted (with a 7-8 year deal). I dont think he wants to leave New jersey, I bet he will take less than market value (Cam Jordan did, Robert Quinn's contract is way more than Jordan or Wilkerson's deals)...so I think the Jets should get it done.

He's the best dlinemen, or second best after sheldon, in the division, 2nd or 3rd best in the conference...I think the framework is there to pay him somewhere between Jordan and Quinn. Just hope it gets done. id like him to retire the jets as "one of the good guys." Like Klecko and Shaun Ellis (ellis didnt retire a jet, but he was one of teh good guys, IMO).

cro filled a weakness we needed badly, our dline was the strong point and may have gotten stronger.

truth be told we may have offered him a deal similar to cameron's but maybe he and his manager turned it down because he wants suh type money.

If that is the case as long as the jets hold the cards they should approach with extreme caution instead of giving out a contract that could hinder the team improving in other areas of more need.

 

[hobson54]

Good point.

Also note we reward free agents but not our own homegrown talent...that is usually how it all fall aparts. We are heading down that path. That's justified.

Even the pats make sure to pay Brady, Gronk, McCourty...their own. At least while they are in their prime. Law, Milloy, Seymours, Welker, Wilfork, etc were given walking papers as they were older. Not us. Our 25 year old cant get a deal done...but we'll over pay a 30+ year old CB (Cro). That worries me too.

Hoping jets get the MO deal done to get the last thorn off the rose off season we've had.

cromartie's deal has a total of $7 million guaranteed ($5MM 2015 base and $2MM roster bonus). after this year, he isn't due a penny and we can get rid of him with no zero hit to the salary cap.

while i too want to keep mo, he reportedly is looking for at least $40 million in guarantees. comparing what he (reportedly) wants and the effective 1-year deal for cro (with jets holding annual options with no guarantees) is apples and oranges.

 

[Superman55]

cromartie's deal has a total of $7 million guaranteed ($5MM 2015 base and $2MM roster bonus). after this year, he isn't due a penny and we can get rid of him with no zero hit to the salary cap.

while i too want to keep mo, he reportedly is looking for at least $40 million in guarantees. comparing what he (reportedly) wants and the effective 1-year deal for cro (with jets holding annual options with no guarantees) is apples and oranges.

Correct me if my math is off, but Mo's salary this year is $6,969,000. If they reworked his deal, and front loaded $14 mill this year (Mo's salary plus Cro's)...that would leave $26 mill over the remainder of his desired deal (if you believe the 40 number)...not much, IMO.

We made room for Cro, and paid him a lot (especially compared to what we could have got him for last year, but that's an idiot's gamble Idzik took and we lost) that could have been used to help lock up Mo and keep his future money down.

Im not arguing if the money is close, I am saying we took care of Cro when our own, younger, less of a malcontent player (at the time) still standing there waiting to get market value....for the 2nd time...

Im not arguing if we needed Cro...we probably did. Skrine, Cro, and Revis gained a lot of bread, but at least Skrine and Revis are younger and long term solutions.

I dont disagree that Mo's big chunk of change can come next year...but IMO, they could have got Mo's big chunk of change out of the way this year...and Sheldon's next year...then we'd be set long term, instead of having constant headaches with holdouts, which appear to be the ongoing future of this franchise the way we're playing our cards.

And this suh/watt money talk is stupid. Wilkerson is asking for Robert Quinn money, nothing close to Suh or watt from reports. I dont know anyone saying that other than a few blowhards on this site who keep making that up.

 

[hobson54]

And this suh/watt money talk is stupid. Wilkerson is asking for Robert Quinn money, nothing close to Suh or watt from reports. I dont know anyone saying that other than a few blowhards on this site who keep making that up.

again, cro vs mo is apples vs oranges. cro is on a 1-year, prove it deal, with the team controlling future years. we have a need at CB, cro is a former jet who wanted to return and a former cardinal who bowles wanted to bring over. can't compare the two when talking 1-year deal vs long-term contract.

as to suh/watt money, where did i suggest that? i said he was likely looking for at least $40 million g'teed, which is what quinn got (4 year, $57MM, $41 g'teed)

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/st.-louis-rams/robert-quinn/

 

[SackExchange]

Of course, last year the pats rebuilt their defense through free agency, as did the Broncos, and they did okay last year...

That was going to be my point.

You don't necessarily build through free agency, but you absolutely can use it effectively. Idzik's aversion to it was way too far to the other side of the spectrum.

The key is to bring in top free agents. Don't spend a lot of money and cap room on second tier guys. You can fill those holes through the draft. Bad WR corps? Go for the top WR out there, not the fifth best. Hole at CB? Go for the big time guys.

 

[Superman55]

again, cro vs mo is apples vs oranges. cro is on a 1-year, prove it deal, with the team controlling future years. we have a need at CB, cro is a former jet who wanted to return and a former cardinal who bowles wanted to bring over. can't compare the two when talking 1-year deal vs long-term contract.

as to suh/watt money, where did i suggest that? i said he was likely looking for at least $40 million g'teed, which is what quinn got (4 year, $57MM, $41 g'teed)

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/st.-louis-rams/robert-quinn/

I didnt say you did, Im just saying I see that as a constant response. And while Cro was needed, was he needed for $7 mill/year? That seems high for an aging CB, IMO, that desperately wanted to play for us. Do you think we were in a bidding war for him?

Cro's money, or a lot of it, could have been used for Mo, whether it was a 1 or 30 year deal, $7 mill per season for Cro is too much, IMO, especially from from a secondary with Patrick Peterson that ranked 24th against the pass...

Also, staying on Mo - notice a Jets hater, Florio, calling Cameron an inferior player to Mo -

Muhammad Wilkerson - DL - Jets
Jets RE Muhammad Wilkerson will attend the veteran minicamp that opens Tuesday.
Wilkerson was contemplating skipping the mandatory sessions as he protests his contract. But he would have been subject to fines totaling $72,920 and gotten no closer to a new deal. Wilkerson's best bet is to keep his head down and hit free agency in 2016, where he'll break the bank. Cam Jordan, an inferior player, just landed a five-year extension worth up to $60 million from the Saints.

 

[Superman55]

That was going to be my point.

You don't necessarily build through free agency, but you absolutely can use it effectively. Idzik's aversion to it was way too far to the other side of the spectrum.

The key is to bring in top free agents. Don't spend a lot of money and cap room on second tier guys. You can fill those holes through the draft. Bad WR corps? Go for the top WR out there, not the fifth best. Hole at CB? Go for the big time guys.

I love our haul in free agency, but like our pick, only if it doesnt impact our ability to keep the foundation together. If a draft pick or free agent breaks the foundation, you dont sign them. If the phins had to lose Wake and Tannehill to sign Suh, it would be a bad deal. Well, Wilkerson has been the only level headed Jet during the rex/Idzik regime...one of the only jets worth talking about. Like Mo Lewis in the kotite years...why treat Mo lewis like a dick? he isnt being unreasonable, from reports, so why overspend on Ronnie Lott, Boomer Esiason, Jeff Graham, and Tony Castillas and not take care of Mo Lewis?

 

[SackExchange]

I didnt say you did, Im just saying I see that as a constant response. And while Cro was needed, was he needed for $7 mill/year? That seems high for an aging CB, IMO, that desperately wanted to play for us. Do you think we were in a bidding war for him?

Cro's money, or a lot of it, could have been used for Mo, whether it was a 1 or 30 year deal, $7 mill per season for Cro is too much, IMO, especially from from a secondary with Patrick Peterson that ranked 24th against the pass...

Also, staying on Mo - notice a Jets hater, Florio, calling Cameron an inferior player to Mo -

Muhammad Wilkerson - DL - Jets
Jets RE Muhammad Wilkerson will attend the veteran minicamp that opens Tuesday.
Wilkerson was contemplating skipping the mandatory sessions as he protests his contract. But he would have been subject to fines totaling $72,920 and gotten no closer to a new deal. Wilkerson's best bet is to keep his head down and hit free agency in 2016, where he'll break the bank. Cam Jordan, an inferior player, just landed a five-year extension worth up to $60 million from the Saints.

But why? Why use that money on Mo now, when you don't have to?

The team is under no obligation to extend him now. If he wants that top money, then he would be getting that if he was tagged, the same as if he was extended. Now, of course, you can structure money on an extension that you can't on a tag, but the team right now is under no obligation to extend him now. They control him, for 2015, and, if tagged, 2016 and 2017 as well.

 

[Superman55]

But why? Why use that money on Mo now, when you don't have to?

The team is under no obligation to extend him now. If he wants that top money, then he would be getting that if he was tagged, the same as if he was extended. Now, of course, you can structure money on an extension that you can't on a tag, but the team right now is under no obligation to extend him now. They control him, for 2015, and, if tagged, 2016 and 2017 as well.

Just my opinion and preference. In all honesty. Id rather stretch the money out at lower numbers, 10/14 mill a year than have a 1 year hit at 16 mill. just preference. I understand that view, but form a dollar and cents, my preference is to stretch the money, especially when we're talking about a 25 year old.

 

[Superman55]

also, lets hope we get some good camp reports so we can talk about something else than crashed porsches and mo's contract...


I hate these two subjects now.

 

[hobson54]

I didnt say you did, Im just saying I see that as a constant response. And while Cro was needed, was he needed for $7 mill/year? That seems high for an aging CB, IMO, that desperately wanted to play for us. Do you think we were in a bidding war for him?

Cro's money, or a lot of it, could have been used for Mo, whether it was a 1 or 30 year deal, $7 mill per season for Cro is too much, IMO, especially from from a secondary with Patrick Peterson that ranked 24th against the pass...

Also, staying on Mo - notice a Jets hater, Florio, calling Cameron an inferior player to Mo -

Muhammad Wilkerson - DL - Jets
Jets RE Muhammad Wilkerson will attend the veteran minicamp that opens Tuesday.
Wilkerson was contemplating skipping the mandatory sessions as he protests his contract. But he would have been subject to fines totaling $72,920 and gotten no closer to a new deal. Wilkerson's best bet is to keep his head down and hit free agency in 2016, where he'll break the bank. Cam Jordan, an inferior player, just landed a five-year extension worth up to $60 million from the Saints.

cro is only on the books for this year. we have no idea if he will be a jet next year. that will be based on his performance, he will need to earn the contract. there isn't a penny guaranteed to him after this year and we can part ways after this year with no future cap hit.

so yes, $7 million is probably a little bit of an over-pay. but the extra couple of million we are giving him for 2015 is more or less rounding error when talking about the $60 million plus ($40 million+ g'teed) that mo will want.

i don't disagree mo is a better player than jordan...which means he is gonna want more than him.

 

[SackExchange]

Just my opinion and preference. In all honesty. Id rather stretch the money out at lower numbers, 10/14 mill a year than have a 1 year hit at 16 mill. just preference. I understand that view, but form a dollar and cents, my preference is to stretch the money, especially when we're talking about a 25 year old.

Well, honestly, I think he's probably worth between $12-14MM per year, anyway. I don't think he's a $16MM player.

If he got tagged, how much would that likely be? What is it? Average of the top 5 guys at his position?

If the formula is scheme-blind and you include both 3-4 and 4-3 DEs, then the top guys annually are:

Watt - $16.667MM
Williams - $16MM
JPP - $14.813MM
Quinn - $14.254MM
Johnson - $12.667MM

If it is just 3-4 DEs, then it's Watt, and:

Jordan - $11MM
Campbell - $11MM
Casey - $9MM
Hatcher - $6.875

Scheme blind, the average would be $14.88MM. Just 3-4, it would be $10.91MM.

He is basically asking for almost as much, or more, than the tag would be. To me, it makes more sense to tag a guy who really is a top 3 player at his position than someone who isn't, because you're going to be paying more equivalent value in doing that.

Ideally, it makes sense in the long term to lock Mo down for a deal somewhere between Jordan's $11MM and Quinn's $14.5MM. But you have to look at the market, and recognize that the numbers suggest 3-4 DEs, aside from Watt, just do not make the money 4-3 DEs do. And that makes sense, considering a higher premium on sacks is placed on 4-3 DEs.

So, do you pay a 3-4 DE the money a 4-3 DE would get? I don't know. I want Mo here for good, but I also do not want it out of line with the salary structure at the position. To me, it makes perfect sense to have him play out into 2015, with two tags in your pocket, and use the leverage the team has.

For once, this front office knows how to play leverage. I think the fans are unaccustomed to it, and are panicked that it will backfire.

 

[Superman55]

I read some place if tagged it would be between 15-16 mill next year...that could be wrong, but that's the # I have seen.

 

[Old#15]

also, lets hope we get some good camp reports so we can talk about something else than crashed porsches and mo's contract...


I hate these two subjects now.

100%

 

[Football51]

Good point.

Also note we reward free agents but not our own homegrown talent...that is usually how it all fall aparts. We are heading down that path. That's justified.

Even the pats make sure to pay Brady, Gronk, McCourty...their own. At least while they are in their prime. Law, Milloy, Seymours, Welker, Wilfork, etc were given walking papers as they were older. Not us. Our 25 year old cant get a deal done...but we'll over pay a 30+ year old CB (Cro). That worries me too.

Hoping jets get the MO deal done to get the last thorn off the rose off season we've had.

Brick, Mangold, Harris(twice), Revis(twice before he was traded), Sanchez(mistake), Kerley.........

 

[Superman55]

Brick, Mangold, Harris(twice), Revis(twice before he was traded), Sanchez(mistake), Kerley.........

Oh, you mean when Mike T believed in resigning our core...sad when Mike T was the good old days...

 

[jetfrantik]

Oh, you mean when Mike T believed in resigning our core...sad when Mike T was the good old days...

lol
these are the good old days.

 

[Superman55]

Also, don't you find it odd our last 2 GMs added a Kerley replacement to the roster? Percy and Smith? Not sure our last 2 GMs favored him as much as our fan base. He's like a poor man's chrebet, don't you think? I wonder if he's in the long term plans. He is a Mike T/Brian S pick. Something to watch (Shottenheimer personally worked Kerley out at his pro day and pushed for him).

I like Kerley, he's a nice player, but I think he needs a big rebound year after a down last year.

 

[Superman55]

lol
these are the good old days.

I 100% agree with that!