Christopher Johnson: Let the players kneel.

[Bigmoe]

The players started this controversy, not President Trump. He simply stated what many people felt by saying “stop disrespecting our flag A-HOLES”. And I just so happen to agree with him.

The handful of players who choose to make a spectacle of themselves by using a sporting event to make a political statement is not something many Americans want to see on Sunday afternoon. They want to watch a football game without a political agenda rammed down their throats.

And a misinformed agenda at that.

Agee with all your post on this subject.
I responded many times but then just deleted my response .
I have come to the conclusion that no one is actually willing to listen , so why even bother .
The agenda is what it is and it is far more reaching than just this .

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

Agee with all your post on this subject.
I responded many times but then just deleted my response .
I have come to the conclusion that no one is actually willing to listen , so why even bother .
The agenda is what it is and it is far more reaching than just this .

If we’re going to silence high school kids who wear Trump “Build the Wall” tees to school by sending them home (Oregon case) and supporters of the President who are refused service for wearing “MAGA” red caps in cafes (NYC case), then I don’t think it’s unreasonable to silence NFL players from making their political statements (which are indirectly pointed at Trump).

I didn’t want to make this about President Trump, but someone beat me to it.

 

[SackExchange]

The players started this controversy, not President Trump. He simply stated what many people felt by saying “stop disrespecting our flag A-HOLES”. And I just so happen to agree with him.

The handful of players who choose to make a spectacle of themselves by using a sporting event to make a political statement is not something many Americans want to see on Sunday afternoon. They want to watch a football game without a political agenda rammed down their throats.

And a misinformed agenda at that.

Playing the anthem itself is a political act. It was started in part during wartime in the 20th century, and has progressed since then. In the same way, singing God Bless America during seventh inning stretches was a political act in response to 9/11. The problem is, once you start doing it, you really can't stop without being bashed for being anti-American.

And you can't say you don't want to watch a football game without having a political agenda rammed down your throat, and then support the playing of the national anthem. It may be a popular political agenda, a majority political agenda, but it's still a politicized act.

 

[SackExchange]

Statistically more white males are shot by cops.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Statistically more white males are shot because there are far more white males. If we did it by percentage, the numbers would tell a far different story.

 

[SackExchange]

The players started this controversy, not President Trump. He simply stated what many people felt by saying “stop disrespecting our flag A-HOLES”. And I just so happen to agree with him.

The handful of players who choose to make a spectacle of themselves by using a sporting event to make a political statement is not something many Americans want to see on Sunday afternoon. They want to watch a football game without a political agenda rammed down their throats.

And a misinformed agenda at that.

If you want to be technical, those who abused their power or shot people for being in their own family's backyards holding cell phones started it, not the players kneeling.

Trump latches on to this because he knows wrapping himself in the flag of faux patriotism takes away from his various acts that stand against all that this country is about, including cuts to veterans benefits.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

Agee with all your post on this subject.
I responded many times but then just deleted my response .
I have come to the conclusion that no one is actually willing to listen , so why even bother .
The agenda is what it is and it is far more reaching than just this .

I believe that this subject matter is relevant to this forum simply because it’s a hot topic right now in the NFL. It’s obviously very political, and that can get heated and uncomfortable for some people. But ESPN and other networks like CBS Sports (Mike Freeman) aren’t pulling any punches right now regarding their opposition to the owners stance, so I feel it’s only right to voice both sides of the issue (or at least a different perspective). It’s an overwhelmingly one sided discussion in the mainstream sports media right now, and that’s not representative of an honest debate.

 

[SackExchange]

I believe that this subject matter is relevant to this forum simply because it’s a hot topic right now in the NFL. It’s obviously very political, and that can get heated and uncomfortable for some people. But ESPN and other networks like CBS Sports (Mike Freeman) aren’t pulling any punches right now regarding their opposition to the owners stance, so I feel it’s only right to voice both sides of the issue (or at least a different perspective). It’s an overwhelmingly one sided discussion in the mainstream sports media right now, and that’s not representative of an honest debate.

That's fine. But what would you and other admitted right wingers, as well as the right-wing media, be saying if the NFL owners, or another league's owners, caved to President Obama on a particular political position?

There would be HOWLING coming from the right. Absolute howling. All kinds of talk about abuse of power from the Oval Office, about political correctness, all that stuff.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

If you want to be technical, those who abused their power or shot people for being in their own family's backyards holding cell phones started it, not the players kneeling.

Trump latches on to this because he knows wrapping himself in the flag of faux patriotism takes away from his various acts that stand against all that this country is about, including cuts to veterans benefits.

Actually, the players started kneeling before that specific event. They started kneeling in protest while investigations were still being carried out, and guilty verdicts were reached by the court of public opinion before judges and juries made their decisions based on actual evidence.

And then when cops were acquitted for using necessary force, the mislead still burned down their communities because they can’t accept the truth that their “civil rights leaders” rushed to judgment and assumed that the police were racist murderers.

 

[SackExchange]

Actually, the players started kneeling before that specific event. They started kneeling in protest while investigations were still being carried out, and guilty verdicts were reached by the court of public opinion before judges and juries made their decisions based on actual evidence.

And then when cops were acquitted for using necessary force, the mislead still burned down their communities because they can’t accept the truth that their “civil rights leaders” rushed to judgment and assumed that the police were racist murderers.

Well, yes, that particular shooting came after the kneeling. I was using it more to illustrate that players were kneeling because of what was happening nationwide.

Here's the problem: How else can people protest this abuse? They demonstrate in the streets, they're called thugs. A small number engage in harmful and violent acts like looting, the entire protest gets labeled. You even did so in this very post. So those who want to protest are told to make sure their protests are only peaceful and non-destructive. Then when they do that, they're bashed for being unpatriotic.

What do those trying to have their voices heard have to do to meet the approval of others? And why do they need that approval to begin with?

Sorry, but until you and others who oppose kneeling offer an effective alternative to kneeling in order to have their message heard, what choice do they have?

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

That's fine. But what would you and other admitted right wingers, as well as the right-wing media, be saying if the NFL owners, or another league's owners, caved to President Obama on a particular political position?

There would be HOWLING coming from the right. Absolute howling. All kinds of talk about abuse of power from the Oval Office, about political correctness, all that stuff.

Political Correctness is far more prevalent in the media than Fox News and other right wing media. The sports media in particular is dedicated to the pro player stance, and would never dare speak out against a predominantly black presence within the NFL, for fear of alienating players and fellow black journalists. It’s career suicide to voice opinions similar to mine (as Britt McHenry and Curt Schilling have learned).

There’s a speech code in sports. You either agree with the politically correct stance of liberals, or you get labeled “intolerant Trump supporting bigots”. They claim to support diversity of opinion, except when those opinions directly contradict their own.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

Well, yes, that particular shooting came after the kneeling. I was using it more to illustrate that players were kneeling because of what was happening nationwide.

Here's the problem: How else can people protest this abuse? They demonstrate in the streets, they're called thugs. A small number engage in harmful and violent acts like looting, the entire protest gets labeled. You even did so in this very post. So those who want to protest are told to make sure their protests are only peaceful and non-destructive. Then when they do that, they're bashed for being unpatriotic.

What do those trying to have their voices heard have to do to meet the approval of others? And why do they need that approval to begin with?

Sorry, but until you and others who oppose kneeling offer an effective alternative to kneeling in order to have their message heard, what choice do they have?

The problem is the double standard. I gave two examples of law abiding Trump supporters being silenced and shown the door by a bunch of fascists who hated their Pro Trump apparel. Tolerance obsessed liberals going all McCarthyism! Talk about irony.

As I’ve stated before, there are other ways to make a difference in changing perspectives and societal conditions. Interactions like barber shop town halls between local police and black leaders in those communities. Education. Big Brothers programs. These things are far more influential and impactful than pissing off a large portion of America with divisive gestures like kneeling before the American flag.

 

[SackExchange]

Political Correctness is far more prevalent in the media than Fox News and other right wing media. The sports media in particular is dedicated to the pro player stance, and would never dare speak out against a predominantly black presence within the NFL, for fear of alienating players and fellow black journalists. It’s career suicide to voice opinions similar to mine (as Britt McHenry and Curt Schilling have learned).

There’s a speech code in sports. You either agree with the politically correct stance of liberals, or you get labeled “intolerant Trump supporting bigots”. They claim to support diversity of opinion, except when those opinions directly contradict their own.

You are saying this because of the side you support. It's that simple. For all the talk about cable news like MSNBC, there's Fox News. For all the talk about newspapers, there's the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, the Washington Times. And talk radio has been owned by the right-wing for a good three decades. Can we stop acting like it's a one-way street, just because you're on the opposite side?

And for all your talk about a speech code, there's a similar speech code the other way. Any act that opposes the infallibility of the United States, you get labeled an unpatriotic liberal snowflake commie who hates our troops. And these players are evidence of it. None of them said ANYTHING against the troops. Yet in this hyper-sensitive day and age, they get labeled as such.

This weekend of all weekends, I absolutely agree that the United States military should be honored for their sacrifice. But why is this the one and only subset of the American population that gets honored? Where do we honor surgeons who save lives? You can't say it's because only the military risks their lives doing their jobs. Just look at teachers these days. And why is it presumed that the flag represents only the troops, and not all Americans? Or July 4th? Memorial Day rightly honors those who have died in the service of our country, and Veterans' Day rightly honors all who have served. There is a large subset of this society who serve our society as surgeons, or teachers, or a variety of other fields that make the best use of their skills, and yet they do not get nearly the appreciation they deserve.

For that matter, since when has supporting our country meant opposing those who express their right to free speech?

 

[SackExchange]

The problem is the double standard. I gave two examples of law abiding Trump supporters being silenced and shown the door by a bunch of fascists who hated their Pro Trump apparel. Tolerance obsessed liberals going all McCarthyism! Talk about irony.

As I’ve stated before, there are other ways to make a difference in changing perspectives and societal conditions. Interactions like barber shop town halls between local police and black leaders in those communities. Education. Big Brothers programs. These things are far more influential and impactful than pissing of a large portion of America with divisive gestures like kneeling before the American flag.

Yes, yes. We get it. People are saying mean things about Trump, and it's in fashion.

It's amazing that nobody said anything derogatory about his predecessor in the White House.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

Playing the anthem itself is a political act. It was started in part during wartime in the 20th century, and has progressed since then. In the same way, singing God Bless America during seventh inning stretches was a political act in response to 9/11. The problem is, once you start doing it, you really can't stop without being bashed for being anti-American.

And you can't say you don't want to watch a football game without having a political agenda rammed down your throat, and then support the playing of the national anthem. It may be a popular political agenda, a majority political agenda, but it's still a politicized act.

I believe you said yourself that you supported allowing the players who objected to the National Anthem the right to stay in the locker room if they objected to the Anthem?

Well, that wish has been granted.

And the rest of the players can still honor America if they so choose. Sounds like everyone wins.

 

[SackExchange]

I believe you said yourself that you supported allowing the players who objected to the National Anthem the right to stay in the locker room if they objected to the Anthem?

Well, that wish has been granted.

And the rest of the players can still honor America if they so choose. Sounds like everyone wins.

I agree. I am fine with players staying in the locker room.

So what type of protest is acceptable, if this one is off the table?

And why have the national anthem at all? If you don't want politics rammed down your throat, isn't that having politics rammed down your throat?

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

You are saying this because of the side you support. It's that simple. For all the talk about cable news like MSNBC, there's Fox News. For all the talk about newspapers, there's the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, the Washington Times. And talk radio has been owned by the right-wing for a good three decades. Can we stop acting like it's a one-way street, just because you're on the opposite side?

And for all your talk about a speech code, there's a similar speech code the other way. Any act that opposes the infallibility of the United States, you get labeled an unpatriotic liberal snowflake commie who hates our troops. And these players are evidence of it. None of them said ANYTHING against the troops. Yet in this hyper-sensitive day and age, they get labeled as such.

This weekend of all weekends, I absolutely agree that the United States military should be honored for their sacrifice. But why is this the one and only subset of the American population that gets honored? Where do we honor surgeons who save lives? You can't say it's because only the military risks their lives doing their jobs. Just look at teachers these days. And why is it presumed that the flag represents only the troops, and not all Americans? Or July 4th? Memorial Day rightly honors those who have died in the service of our country, and Veterans' Day rightly honors all who have served. There is a large subset of this society who serve our society as surgeons, or teachers, or a variety of other fields that make the best use of their skills, and yet they do not get nearly the appreciation they deserve.

For that matter, since when has supporting our country meant opposing those who express their right to free speech?

Regarding the media, Fox is the #1 cable news network and it isn’t even really close. The reason for that is that it is a response to a predominantly liberal mainstream media presence at the major networks: NBC, CBS, and ABC. One only has to watch 5 minutes of their nightly news stories to see the bias. The NY Times is one of the biggest newspapers in America and it’s hatred for Trump is transparent. The Washington Times doesn’t come close to the NY Times in subscription numbers. The Right owns the radio, and the Left owns the rest of mainstream media outside of Fox News. The major newspapers within the cities of America all outweigh the Wall Street Journal. And it’s not even close.

I reject all references to reasonable people on the Left as Communists and Socialists. And I don’t consider anyone who speaks out against conditions they don’t like as un-American. If you’re mad and want to express yourself, have at it. I’m not satisfied with a lot of things either. But I’m not going to show up at work and start a protest to make my concerns known. And the players in the NFL shouldn’t either, IMO. They’re using their spotlight to call attention to something that, while important, shouldn’t be expressed in the manner they’re expressing it. America hasn’t let you down. A small minority of police officers who abused their power has let you down. Don’t protest the flag. The flag represents freedom, abolition of slavery, equal rights under the law, and prosecution of those who violate your civil rights.

The American flag isn’t the enemy. The flag represents the ideals that support equal protection under the Constitution.

 

[SackExchange]

Regarding the media, Fox is the #1 cable news network and it isn’t even really close. The reason for that is that it is a response to a predominantly liberal mainstream media presence at the major networks: NBC, CBS, and ABC. One only has to watch 5 minutes of their nightly news stories to see the bias. The NY Times is one of the biggest newspapers in America and it’s hatred for Trump is transparent. The Washington Times doesn’t come close to the NY Times in subscription numbers. The Right owns the radio, and the Left owns the rest of mainstream media outside of Fox News. The major newspapers within the cities of America all outweigh the Wall Street Journal. And it’s not even close.

I reject all references to reasonable people on the Left as Communists and Socialists. And I don’t consider anyone who speaks out against conditions they don’t like as un-American. If you’re mad and want to express yourself, have at it. I’m not satisfied with a lot of things either. But I’m not going to show up at work and start a protest to make my concerns known. And the players in the NFL shouldn’t either, IMO. They’re using their spotlight to call attention to something that, while important, shouldn’t be expressed in the manner they’re expressing it. America hasn’t let you down. A small minority of police officers who abused their power has let you down. Don’t protest the flag. The flag represents freedom, abolition of slavery, equal rights under the law, and prosecution of those who violate your civil rights.

The American flag isn’t the enemy. The flag represents the ideals that support equal protection under the Constitution.

That Constitution, when initially drafted in 1787, established that in slave states, for every five slaves, three could count toward proportional representation, while zero of the five were granted the vote. Equal protection has been a long process, one that is still going on. That is why the Constitution is a fluid document, and why changes have occurred under the amendment process for more than two centuries. I assume, then, if you are talking about the Constitution offering equal protection, that you are acknowledging that the Constitution is a fluid, living document, open to new interpretations and changes over generations? That's a sentiment I do not hear very often echoed by the right.

And why is it so easy to explain away the police as a "small minority" while condemning an even smaller number of violent and destructive protesters as "mislead" and having "burned down their communities," or a yet even smaller number of school administrators and cafe owners as a "bunch of fascists who hated their pro Trump apparel."

So the several instances (likely easily in the dozens) of white police officers who have used deadly force on black victims is a "small minority," but the one California school administrator and the one New York cafe you cited are a "bunch of fascists?" Seriously?

When you say something like that, it's tough to view your interpretation of bias in the media with anything but skepticism.

And for the record, as for the cafe, according to many conservatives, when it's a same-sex couple wanting a wedding cake, businesses should have the freedom to choose who they serve, but when it's a Trump supporter in a red hat, it's fascism for not serving that patron. Convenient.

 

[TebowCan'tThrow]

OMG, this is getting so old. Stand, kneel, sit, raise a fist, Sieg Heil, look at your phone, take a shit or eat nachos. I don't give a shit what people do. I watch sports to entertain me. I don't need my political news or social injustices mixed with my sports. At this point all I care about is winning a Super Bowl before I die. The rest of the world will continue to be an awful place. IMO, America is still the greatest country ever created even if a few are trying to ruin it.

 

[SackExchange]

And this still has not answered the question. What is acceptable protest? Protesting in the streets gets tarnished by the actions of a few. Speaking out gets bashed. Protesting silently during the national anthem gets attacked.

So what recourse is there?

The whole point of protest is for others to notice it, yet the only type of protest that will make some people happy is the type they can safely ignore.

This isn't about wanting protesters to find a more respectful means of expressing their opinions. It's about wanting them to shut up because you don't like what they're saying - or at least have them say it someplace where you won't have to hear or see them.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

And this still has not answered the question. What is acceptable protest? Protesting in the streets gets tarnished by the actions of a few. Speaking out gets bashed. Protesting silently during the national anthem gets attacked.

So what recourse is there?

The whole point of protest is for others to notice it, yet the only type of protest that will make some people happy is the type they can safely ignore.

This isn't about wanting protesters to find a more respectful means of expressing their opinions. It's about wanting them to shut up because you don't like what they're saying - or at least have them say it someplace where you won't have to hear or see them.

Plenty of Americans have peacefully protested in the streets of America for as long as I can remember. It still happens today. And many people like myself have no problem at all with it. It is their right. However, when the justice system concludes that a cop or cops used necessary force in a particular case, that doesn’t give you the right to start burning and breaking things because you don’t like the verdict. And that happens sometimes, too.

The NFL players shouldn’t be any different. If any of the other more constructive ways of dealing with this issue aren’t used, then go ahead and be part of a peaceful protest while you’re on your own time. You’re being paid to do a job on Sunday afternoon, and demonstrating your discontent about police brutality (including cases that haven’t even been adjudicated yet) isn’t part of that job.