OT: Muhammad Ali has died (age 74)

[jets82]

I have mixed feelings about him.
He fought for America as Cassius Clay but refused to as Mohammed Ali.
I would imagine there were countless soldiers who were hugging the ground while bullets were flying over their heads who wondered "Why didn't I think of that?"
He could have just declared himself a conscientious objector, served his country in a non-combat role (cook, inventory clerk,etc), but didn't.
He became a Muslim because he was against violence, but then made his living trying to beat his opponents to a pulp. I felt that was hypocritical.

On the other hand, he took the penalty, missing three years in his prime, and went on to be a symbol for those who felt 'Nam was an unjust and unnecessary war.
He was principled and he stuck to his principles. He was generous to charities and worked hard to raise money to cure the horrible disease that affected him in the later half of his life. I feel he was a good person.

As I said, I have mixed feelings.
RIP

Later

Alittle more to it then him just not serving his country because of his religious beliefs. It had alot more to do with the fact that as a black man he fought for this country as Cassius Clay in the U.S. Olympics but then he couldn't eat pretty much in any restaurant predominantly catered to white people because he is a black man, for example. Besides everything else he dealt with and witnessed in his life that happened to him, his family and to the rest of his culture. So I understand why he did what he did and as a black man of course I understand and agree.

 

[NewMFS62]

Bronx, there are religions other than Islam that preach pacifism, one is the Quakers. Members of that sect have been permitted to serve their country in a non-combat role.

In addition, the military will accommodate the religious beliefs of the soldiers. The fact that he could not serve because of his religious beliefs doesn't hold water. When I served in the Army during the mid-60's, there were two Muslims in my unit who had their own food and were permitted to pray as their religion dictated. Ali's being Muslim would have been a non-issue back then.

Later

 

[Bronx]

Bronx, there are religions other than Islam that preach pacifism, one is the Quakers. Members of that sect have been permitted to serve their country in a non-combat role.

In addition, the military will accommodate the religious beliefs of the soldiers. The fact that he could not serve because of his religious beliefs doesn't hold water. When I served in the Army during the mid-60's, there were two Muslims in my unit who had their own food and were permitted to pray as their religion dictated. Ali's being Muslim would have been a non-issue back then.

Later

Yet the Supreme Court ruled in his favor. Ali knew he wouldn't be actually fighting in the war, but that did not matter, he refused to go against his core beliefs

 

[Savage69]

Do you believe that people should be excused from serving due to religious beliefs? He could not serve, in any capacity, due to his beliefs. In my mind , this is a non-issue


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So Muslims are non violent and don't believe in war?? The group that Ali joined(Black Muslims) led by Elijah Mohammad was a racist organisation that hated whites and called them devils.. When Malcolm X broke away they had him killed.. They used Ali for money and to promote their organisation, he finally broke away but not before almost going broke which is why he had to fight longer then he should have which took a toll on his health..

 

[Bronx]

So Muslims are non violent and don't believe in war?? The group that Ali joined(Black Muslims) led by Elijah Mohammad was a racist organisation that hated whites and called them devils.. When Malcolm X broke away they had him killed.. They used Ali for money and to promote their organisation, he finally broke away but not before almost going broke which is why he had to fight longer then he should have which took a toll on his health..

Not sure what your point is, but clearly the Supreme Court agreed that Ali was a Conscientious Objector




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[RMJK]

Yet the Supreme Court ruled in his favor. Ali knew he wouldn't be actually fighting in the war, but that did not matter, he refused to go against his core beliefs

Ali won the gold medal in the olympics and came home to a town where colored had to use different bathrooms., entrances , and were second hand citizens. His basic argument was why should I fight for the US when I'm not equal to a white guy in my own country. I'm white and was stationed in Memphis during that time. The country was ..cked up and I see his point. Fast foward to 2016 ...

 

[Green Jets & Ham]

Ali won the gold medal in the olympics and came home to a town where colored had to use different bathrooms., entrances , and were second hand citizens. His basic argument was why should I fight for the US when I'm not equal to a white guy in my own country. I'm white and was stationed in Memphis during that time. The country was ..cked up and I see his point. Fast foward to 2016 ...

Exactly, you have to put past events into historical context. You can't judge historical events by current standards. It drives me crazy when people do that, and its so often done, even by so called intellectuals who should know better. I can give you a million examples of people choosing to demonize people for past words and behaviors, using todays societal norms as their guide. I got news for you, there are a lot of social norms today that people are likely to look back on fifty years hence as abhorrent and barbaric. We should only hope they are more generous in their assessment of us, considering the historical context, than we are of our ancestors, historical and more recent. I lived thru the 60's and 70's and it was a totally different world, and so was the 18th century, so its unfair to demonize the founders. Context matters.

When Ali said; "No Vietcong ever called me n***er", he had a point that was undeniable, in the 1960's it was still socially acceptable to use dehumanizing words like n***er in polite company, and it was thrown around like confetti.

 

[Bronx]

Thanks for serving RMJK. No doubt that the Nation of Islam was racist , but so was Jim Crow. But I believe Ali helped us move forward , as a nation


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[Green Jets & Ham]

Thanks for serving RMJK. No doubt that the Nation of Islam was racist , but so was Jim Crow. But I believe Ali helped us move forward , as a nation.

Exactly, the whole country was racist, Ali was just fighting fire with fire. Yeah I wish he had embraced MLK instead of Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammad and the NOI, ultimately Dr. King made a far greater impact in effecting change than the black militants, as did the unsung civil rights hero of that era, Thurgood Marshall, and both worked within the system to bring about change, but I could understand the impulse to be a revolutionary a few years removed from Jim Crow (i.e. institutionalized racism), the society Clay/Ali grew up in, and racism on an individual level didn't magically disappear after the 64' Civil Rights Act. The country was still deeply divided on race. I'm a lot of things, some good and some bad, but I don't like to be a sanctimonious hypocrite. I may have disagreed with Ali's politics, but I understand why he was angry.

 

[Savage69]

Not sure what your point is, but clearly the Supreme Court agreed that Ali was a Conscientious Objector




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Not every job in the military is one of combat many Objectors served in the medical field..Ali would have served much like Joe Lewis did doing boxing exhibitions etc He never would have seen combat or been near it.. I thought he was a great fighter but I did have problems with many of the decisions he made..Like RMJK I was in the Military in the 60's..

 

[Bronx]

Not every job in the military is one of combat many Objectors served in the medical field..Ali would have served much like Joe Lewis did doing boxing exhibitions etc He never would have seen combat or been near it.. I thought he was a great fighter but I did have problems with many of the decisions he made..Like RMJK I was in the Military in the 60's..

Thanks for your service.

You are correct, but I think it's important to understand, he could not support the war in any way, shape or form


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[Green Jets & Ham]

I'm white and was stationed in Memphis during that time.

Like RMJK I was in the Military in the 60's..

Thank You for your service brothers, and if anyone forgot to say it ... welcome home.

 

[gastineau]

I'm just lucky to have grown up watching him fight & entertain us all with his wit. Ali helped point out some very bad issues in our society & helped bring people together to stop & change them. Glad I bought a Ali auto card & happy to have it hanging in my home knowing this great man held & signed my card. May God Bless you Ali & your family...RIP

 

[NewMFS62]

Like RMJK I was in the Military in the 60's..

As did I.
Later

 

[Green Jets & Ham]

As did I.
Later

Thank You.