Grade the Jets Draft

[sg3]

I apologize, supe

As you well know, you are one of the best posters here and unignorable for sure. A treasure here at JFU

Keep up the good work

 

[SackExchange]

I guess Id ask what warrants an A+ about this class? Maybe if Williams didnt have shoulder
concerns...maybe if Petty was more pro ready...the kid has taken 5 snaps under center the last 4 years and has never read a defense or progressed through WRs to throw a pass...or he's one of the least NFL ready QB in the draft...that and he's 24 with back issues...meaning when he's ready to play he'll likely be 25 or 26 with back issues. Smith was a nice WR addition, Jones was great value as a UDFA, and Stacy and Marshall were awesome value for what we gave up.

...but its hard to give an A+ to a #6 pick that could have us in the same situation Clowney put the Texans in (always a nagging issue and shoulders that lead to long term issues we dont know about). We thought we didnt have to worry about Milliner's injury history and how has that turned out? Also, Petty is a hair younger from being Chris Weinke...

On paper, these picks are awesome...that's why there is an A. If we landed a Williams with zero shoulder issues (a DT that wont lift for scouts is a concern, he wouldn't lift weights at his pro day or the combine and said he had no reason to not lift weights...which means there is no reason he couldn't...unless he has something to hide from teams and scouts) and a quickly aging QB that needs to learn the basics on how to be a QB...like how to take a snap...There is a lot of work and risk before we know this is an A+....

OK. To me, it sounded like you were giving them an A instead of an A+ because they hadn't shown it on the field yet. That confused me, since no team's picks have shown anything on the field yet.

 

[LIJETFAN]

I accentuate what we call "risk." We cant all wear green and white glasses and pretend everything has no risk because they wear a Jets uniform.

I read the post below yours, "who cares if he didn't lift." Well, almost every prospect did but a handful, and the ones that didnt had injuries...except our player...who says he isnt hurt but says he cant bench press for you...I guess it is negative to ask why not? You weigh 300lbs but you're scared to bench press in front of people?

5 teams found that enough reason to go in another direction...we also ignored injury concerns with Milliner. Im not saying it makes it a bad pick, and if you want to wear your green and white dungarees and and howl at the moon with excitement, fine. Give it an A+. But we've been burned by this type of thing before...lets let the guy take an NFL snap before we put him in the hall of fame. I myself have already compared him to Reggie White and people think I dont like the pick...im just saying there is a risk with Williams that scared teams away...

Also, I like the explanation, "Williams said in an interview his shoulder isnt an issue." Huh, wonder if Milliner said the same thing after we drafted him. What player says "worry about my knee injury?" Saying there is no risk with the Williams pick is like saying there is no risk with the Todd Gurley pick.

the kid has an issue with his shoulders...he wont even lift weights in front of people...there is a risk, like it or not, and I still gave the pick an A.

Wear your green glasses and put him in the hall already if you want. Ill just let him take 1 NFL snap first before I crown him.

55 I was incredibly critical of the Milliner pick because of his injury history. And, as much as I liked Gurley, I would have avoided him too for that reason, and I have said that on this board. Williams is a different case. I am pointing out that there are a variety of reasons why he may have decided not to lift. It obviously didn't concern the Jets brass at all. And my take is that our GM and new coach would not let something like strength or injury go unchecked. Again, I say, who cares if he lifts or not. Actually I don't blame him, why risk tearing a bicep or a tricep or straining a shoulder if you already know you are going in the top 5. If he had something a rotator cuff tear or something that required surgery that would have shown up in the medical. He's fine. Stop chasing ghosts.

You mentioned that 5 teams found a reason to go another direction, that's true. But 2 of them took QBs, so it is actually really three teams. And the only team that you can question is the Redskins. The other picks made complete sense. So one team passed on him and we took him next. That is not exactly a massive slide in the draft.

 

[Superman55]

OK. To me, it sounded like you were giving them an A instead of an A+ because they hadn't shown it on the field yet. That confused me, since no team's picks have shown anything on the field yet.

I like the picks overall. I think some of our picks were available due to some "minor" flags. Obviously I hope they stay minor flags and Williams turns into Reggie and Petty turns Into Rodgers...but Clowneys minor knee issues turned into 3 knee surgeries and a micro fracture...I do think some teams ahead of us said prove to us you don't have shoulder issues and when Williams said no, they said no thank you.

I should apologize on every post I guess for not being a blind homer.

 

[Superman55]

55 I was incredibly critical of the Milliner pick because of his injury history. And, as much as I liked Gurley, I would have avoided him too for that reason, and I have said that on this board. Williams is a different case. I am pointing out that there are a variety of reasons why he may have decided not to lift. It obviously didn't concern the Jets brass at all. And my take is that our GM and new coach would not let something like strength or injury go unchecked. Again, I say, who cares if he lifts or not. Actually I don't blame him, why risk tearing a bicep or a tricep or straining a shoulder if you already know you are going in the top 5. If he had something a rotator cuff tear or something that required surgery that would have shown up in the medical. He's fine. Stop chasing ghosts.

You mentioned that 5 teams found a reason to go another direction, that's true. But 2 of them took QBs, so it is actually really three teams. And the only team that you can question is the Redskins. The other picks made complete sense. So one team passed on him and we took him next. That is not exactly a massive slide in the draft.

I identified something as a risk and now I'm chasing ghosts. Holy shit. Green glasses wearing homers of the world unite!

 

[SackExchange]

I like the picks overall. I think some of our picks were available due to some "minor" flags. Obviously I hope they stay minor flags and Williams turns into Reggie and Petty turns Into Rodgers...but Clowneys minor knee issues turned into 3 knee surgeries and a micro fracture...I do think some teams ahead of us said prove to us you don't have shoulder issues and when Williams said no, they said no thank you.

I should apologize on every post I guess for not being a blind homer.

It's legit to have some flags. I understand the shoulder issue with Williams, although that did not stop most from having him at the top of the board. I would argue that the need over BPA argument is what caises teams to reach for guys, and not take top talent. If you pass on a much better player to fill a need, you're hurting your team.

And enough with the blind homerism stuff. I never bashed you for the A. It's the same grade I gave. And in case you missed it, I was critical about the team trading down, with the good players who came off the board between 70 and 82. But I don't go around acting like I'm the only one who criticizes the team.

 

[Superman55]

It's legit to have some flags. I understand the shoulder issue with Williams, although that did not stop most from having him at the top of the board. I would argue that the need over BPA argument is what caises teams to reach for guys, and not take top talent. If you pass on a much better player to fill a need, you're hurting your team.

And enough with the blind homerism stuff. I never bashed you for the A. It's the same grade I gave. And in case you missed it, I was critical about the team trading down, with the good players who came off the board between 70 and 82. But I don't go around acting like I'm the only one who criticizes the team.

Honest question: do you think Milkiner was a reach at the time or BPA at 9? I remember him as a top 5 talent that fell to 9. I never thought of him as a reach. It's easy now to call it a reach, but I felt it was a BPA pick that day.

 

[SackExchange]

Honest question: do you think Milkiner was a reach at the time or BPA at 9? I remember him as a top 5 talent that fell to 9. I never thought of him as a reach. It's easy now to call it a reach, but I felt it was a BPA pick that day.

I don't think it was a reach. But I do know there were concerns about his health. I think he may have had around pick 5 talent, but enough flags (and worse flags than Williams) to merit his slot where he was. I'm not sure it was completely comparable, though, as I think Williams had fewer red flags and was a considerably higher value than everyone else on the board.

 

[LIJETFAN]

It's legit to have some flags. I understand the shoulder issue with Williams, although that did not stop most from having him at the top of the board. I would argue that the need over BPA argument is what caises teams to reach for guys, and not take top talent. If you pass on a much better player to fill a need, you're hurting your team.

And enough with the blind homerism stuff. I never bashed you for the A. It's the same grade I gave. And in case you missed it, I was critical about the team trading down, with the good players who came off the board between 70 and 82. But I don't go around acting like I'm the only one who criticizes the team.

There you have it. well said Sack. And 55, I don't think anyone on this board that knows me would consider me a homer, including you. Let's elevate the conversation a little bit and stop the baseless name calling.

 

[Superman55]

I don't think it was a reach. But I do know there were concerns about his health. I think he may have had around pick 5 talent, but enough flags (and worse flags than Williams) to merit his slot where he was. I'm not sure it was completely comparable, though, as I think Williams had fewer red flags and was a considerably higher value than everyone else on the board.

Agree on less flags, I just think everyone is looking at this as a miracle blessing. In my experience, anything labeled as a too good to be true usually is. Just like I understand why Milliner fell, I understand why Williams fell. There are some flags that he made to effort to remove. None, even when asked. Some posters said they understand him not lifting and risking injury...well, him not lifting likely cost him a top 5 pick and a couple hundred thousand dollars...so he decided to not lift and lose the money over what the lifting would have shown. Maybe he was advised against it like Geno and the sr bowl...but like Geno and the sr bowl...I think it would have been in his better judgement to have listed and shown he has nothing to hide. Let's hope he doesn't and truly is Reggie white.

I'm over the redundant thing. Hopefully if we lose 1 of the 3, it's the worst one; better yet, hopefully they are all studs and we lock them up while our franchise QB is on his rookie deal and do t have to worry about losing any of then for 10 years...

 

[hobson54]

Agree on less flags, I just think everyone is looking at this as a miracle blessing. In my experience, anything labeled as a too good to be true usually is. Just like I understand why Milliner fell, I understand why Williams fell. There are some flags that he made to effort to remove. None, even when asked. Some posters said they understand him not lifting and risking injury...well, him not lifting likely cost him a top 5 pick and a couple hundred thousand dollars...so he decided to not lift and lose the money over what the lifting would have shown. Maybe he was advised against it like Geno and the sr bowl...but like Geno and the sr bowl...I think it would have been in his better judgement to have listed and shown he has nothing to hide. Let's hope he doesn't and truly is Reggie white.

I'm over the redundant thing. Hopefully if we lose 1 of the 3, it's the worst one; better yet, hopefully they are all studs and we lock them up while our franchise QB is on his rookie deal and do t have to worry about losing any of then for 10 years...

i have no idea how you can make the assumption that not lifting cost him a draft pick.

the first 2 picks were QBs. bad teams take QBs. sort of self-explanatory.

jax picked the best edge rusher in the draft. now who knows if they picked fowler over williams because of williams' shoulder concerns. it's possible, but hard to say definitively when they went for a different position

oak picked a WR. they could have went for d-line help, but had a huge need for a WR and took a guy also considered among the best prospects in the draft. offense vs defense pick, so can't say conclusively williams' shoulder was the determining factor

wash took an o-lineman. against offense vs defense. most think this was a reach of a pick, so maybe williams' shoulder scared them. or maybe they just reached for an offensive lineman

so to summarize, while it is possible williams' shoulder scared off one of these teams, it is also possible it played no factor whatsoever, and these teams made their picks because of other needs on their roster or they liked other players. macc clearly stuck to a BPA approach on this pick, others may have factored need more into the equation (i find it hard to believe anyone thought scherff was a top 5 player in this draft as someone not likely to play LT)

 

[Superman55]

i have no idea how you can make the assumption that not lifting cost him a draft pick.

the first 2 picks were QBs. bad teams take QBs. sort of self-explanatory.

jax picked the best edge rusher in the draft. now who knows if they picked fowler over williams because of williams' shoulder concerns. it's possible, but hard to say definitively when they went for a different position

oak picked a WR. they could have went for d-line help, but had a huge need for a WR and took a guy also considered among the best prospects in the draft. offense vs defense pick, so can't say conclusively williams' shoulder was the determining factor

wash took an o-lineman. against offense vs defense. most think this was a reach of a pick, so maybe williams' shoulder scared them. or maybe they just reached for an offensive lineman

so to summarize, while it is possible williams' shoulder scared off one of these teams, it is also possible it played no factor whatsoever, and these teams made their picks because of other needs on their roster or they liked other players. macc clearly stuck to a BPA approach on this pick, others may have factored need more into the equation (i find it hard to believe anyone thought scherff was a top 5 player in this draft as someone not likely to play LT)

Read my post. Does it say it did cost him or likely cost him? There is no assumption in my post. What's that term you like to use, reading comprehension issue from a Michigan grad?

 

[Mainejet]

They got your "guy from Baylor", though and didn't even have to use a Day 1 or Day 2 pick to do it[emoji4]

Well, I said the rest of the draft was excellent, did I not? Getting Petty in the 4th was truly good value as were many others. But this is not an A+ draft to the reasons I already posted.

 

[Superman55]

Well, I said the rest of the draft was excellent, did I not? Getting Petty in the 4th was truly good value as were many others. But this is not an A+ draft to the reasons I already posted.

Can your mind change over time or does it not matter how good the class is based on where drafted?

 

[Mainejet]

Can your mind change over time or does it not matter how good the class is based on where drafted?

Pose that question to me after 3 seasons and that will ultimately tell us how well we did.

 

[SackExchange]

I would like to think that anyone, when presented new evidence, is entitled to change their minds.

That's one of the problems I have with the whole armchair GMing on message boards. There is often a greater desire to be right than to have what's best for the team.

Some people rooted against Sanchez, just to be right. Some have rooted against Geno for the very same reason. Some would rather be right about their negative reactions than be wrong and have the team (or a player) pleasantly surprise them.

For me, I care far more about the Jets winning than about ego. I didn't get the Sheldon Richardson pick. I'm SOOOOOO happy I was wrong.

 

[HYATT™]

I would like to think that anyone, when presented new evidence, is entitled to change their minds.

That's one of the problems I have with the whole armchair GMing on message boards. There is often a greater desire to be right than to have what's best for the team.

Some people rooted against Sanchez, just to be right. Some have rooted against Geno for the very same reason. Some would rather be right about their negative reactions than be wrong and have the team (or a player) pleasantly surprise them.

For me, I care far more about the Jets winning than about ego. I didn't get the Sheldon Richardson pick. I'm SOOOOOO happy I was wrong.

It's not impossible to hold 2 competing thoughts in one's mind at the same time.
One can believe GeNOT stinks, believe 100% he will fail, and STILL hope he succeeds for the sake of the Jets team.
Likewise Snatchez, which was very much how HYATT™ handled his draft and subsequent 3 years as a starter.

HYATT™ reserved most of his criticism all that time, but yet never shied away from telling the truth if asked or found applicable to a debate.
There comes a point however, where one must just give up the BS and tell it like it is, regardless of how it sounds to the homers.

 

[hobson54]

Read my post. Does it say it did cost him or likely cost him? There is no assumption in my post. What's that term you like to use, reading comprehension issue from a Michigan grad?

lol...you want to play a game of semantics and stick by likely cost him instead of cost him, go for it. the rest of my post still holds.

again, you have no idea if the shoulder LIKELY cost him draft position. now if you want to say it MAY HAVE cost him, i could accept that phrasing. LIKELY seems to indicate a greater than 50% chance (perhaps significantly higher) of costing him.

perhaps this wasn't covered at penn state:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/likely

Full Definition of LIKELY

1
: having a high probability of occurring or being true : very probable <rain is likely today>

 

[SackExchange]

It's not impossible to hold 2 competing thoughts in one's mind at the same time.
One can believe GeNOT stinks, believe 100% he will fail, and STILL hope he succeeds for the sake of the Jets team.
Likewise Snatchez, which was very much how HYATT™ handled his draft and subsequent 3 years as a starter.

HYATT™ reserved most of his criticism all that time, but yet never shied away from telling the truth if asked or found applicable to a debate.
There comes a point however, where one must just give up the BS and tell it like it is, regardless of how it sounds to the homers.

Absolutely. That is why, toward the end with Sanchez, I just didn't understand how his play was defensible. There is a point where you have to acknowledge that, as badly as you want it to work, it's not working, and it likely never will.

Likely...interesting word.

 

[OCCH]

Absolutely. That is why, toward the end with Sanchez, I just didn't understand how his play was defensible. There is a point where you have to acknowledge that, as badly as you want it to work, it's not working, and it likely never will.

Likely...interesting word.

Which is where some of us are with Geno . . .