If DT- Leonard Williams is on the board when we pick @ #6 ....

Green Jets & Ham

King Of All Draftniks
Jet Fanatics
If any of you realized how much the Raiders want this guy and vice versa, you wouldn't be wasting your time theorizing such a decision to be made. He's not reaching our #6 pick. No how, no way.
I agree and I'll be shocked if Leonard Williams falls to the Jets. Not many things would surprise me, I can make a case for just about anyone sliding to the Jets, but this is one I have a hard time imaging. That said, I'm just going by the premise the OP presented, and in the unlikely event that it happens, I'm just pointing out how you can easily justify taking him.

Conventional wisdom would call it overkill on the D-line, but I think conventional wisdom is short-sighted.
 
J

Jet Setter

Guest
I agree and I'll be shocked if Leonard Williams falls to the Jets. Not many things would surprise me, I can make a case for just about anyone sliding to the Jets, but this is one I have a hard time imaging. That said, I'm just going by the premise the OP presented, and in the unlikely event that it happens, I'm just pointing out how you can easily justify taking him.

Conventional wisdom would call it overkill on the D-line, but I think conventional wisdom is short-sighted.


That's a great line but in this case I don't agree with it. Which is okay.
 

Green Jets & Ham

King Of All Draftniks
Jet Fanatics
Incidentally and just for the record, I happen to love Danny Shelton, but him I would NOT take at 6 because he's too similar to Snacks, a big run stuffing NT, whereas Williams is similar to Sheldon Richardson and Mo Wilkerson, a 4-3 DE/DT hybrid who significantly improves your pass rush in a four man front from either spot. Lest I be accused of inconsistency, thats why I would take Williams at 6, but not Shelton.
 

Pointdexter

Pro Bowl Alternate
Jet Fanatics
Ham,

So you're saying you would rather Todd Bowles, in his first year here, change his preferred base defensive package to find room for LT, all the while neglecting gaping holes we still have on the roster? That may be your prerogative but it isn't mine.

Look, if you guys were arguing about adding Ndam Suh at DT then there might be a point. But this idea that Leonard Williams is some transcendent talent, that we should shift our entire off-season strategy, our entire base defense, and neglect some huge areas of weaknesses to add to one of the very few we have of strength, is crazyness. Why do you guys feel this way? Because mock drafts have him in the top 3 so his all-important "value" is too good to pass up? Jeebus, guys. Great players will come from all over this draft's 1st round, not just the top 5 picks. Some of you are ready to switch defensive strategies, nullifying a lot of the FA spending we've made to this point, for a player many of you have never even seen live.
 

jetfandreamer

Jets Groupie
Jet Fanatics
This is the kind of thinking that cracks me up. And I apologize if this comes off as being a dic as I'm really not intending that. But too many assign an arbitrary value on a player based solely off their early projection in mock drafts, done by those in the media.

Then when a player a drops, we jump up and say we HAVE to take that guy, his "value" is too good to pass up here. Listen, the "value" is imaginary. It wasn't based off anything real; it was based off of a consensus of mock drafts. Now if some of you actually do your homework and watch these guys play, then that is another story. But the bottom line is that most people claiming "Johnny X" is "too good to pass up here" has never seen more than a 3 minute highlight clip and a synopsis off of NFL.com.

The idea that Leonard Williams is going to be significantly better than Beasley or Gregory or Shelton or Goldman or Armistead is nothing but the consensus of media hacks that, more often than not, just copy Kiper's early mocks and tweak theirs slightly.

So this fantasy of forgoing actual need and players that play positions that might help us address weaknesses and become a better football team, and instead taking a DT (when we're stacked there) who some think is "too good to pass up at 6 because the VALUE is too damn high", is just that: fantasy.

It's not happening. No way Macc is THAT bad of a GM. Hell, Idzik wasn't that bad of a GM. Hell, Rich Kotite would have known better. That's how farfetched this idea is.

If he lasts to 6..ever think theres a good reason??
 

maxmet

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
The question will be how does our front office value him if he drops. If they think he is way better than other options, take him.

One great possibility would be if he is there and 2 or 3 edge rushers are there - maybe some other team loves him and will give us extra pick(s) to move up and take him.

This offseason so far make me feel good that our front office is smart
 

Green Jets & Ham

King Of All Draftniks
Jet Fanatics
Ham,

So you're saying you would rather Todd Bowles, in his first year here, change his preferred base defensive package to find room for LT, all the while neglecting gaping holes we still have on the roster? That may be your prerogative but it isn't mine.

Look, if you guys were arguing about adding Ndam Suh at DT then there might be a point. But this idea that Leonard Williams is some transcendent talent, that we should shift our entire off-season strategy, our entire base defense, and neglect some huge areas of weaknesses to add to one of the very few we have of strength, is crazyness. Why do you guys feel this way? Because mock drafts have him in the top 3 so his all-important "value" is too good to pass up? Jeebus, guys. Great players will come from all over this draft's 1st round, not just the top 5 picks. Some of you are ready to switch defensive strategies, nullifying a lot of the FA spending we've made to this point, for a player many of you have never even seen live.
Dex, I would agree if I thought Bowles was wedded to a traditional 3-4 like a Dick LeBeau, but if my understanding of Bowles is correct, his scheme is far more diverse and he takes his linebackers off the field to flood the zone with DB's more than any other coach in the league. IOW's he uses his D-line and a blitzing DB or two to get after the QB more than a traditional 3-4 like LeBeau's that heavily relies on the pass rush from his OLB's, and never takes them off the field.

So I don't see this as a radical switch if it happened. I would for LeBeau, in fact its inconceivable too me that he would even consider it, but if what I'm reading about Bowles is true, he can easily make this switch without batting an eye.
 

Green Jets & Ham

King Of All Draftniks
Jet Fanatics
Dex, as for "value", I agree with the premise you are putting forth. You never really know what the value of a particular player is until the draft unfolds. Every year we see guys getting drafted earlier and later than their consensus projections, and more often than not that means the consensus projections were off from a value POV, so that part is true.

Thats not ALWAYS the case. Sometimes a player goes higher or lower than their consensus projections for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with straight value, like teams drafting for needs or positional value, but sometimes these projections are just not an accurate read of what the actual scouts and GM's are saying and thinking.
 

Elias

The Invisible Man
Big Fish
Jet Fanatics
Jets Global
Agree with Ham and Dex. Remember when the Seahawks drafted Bruce Irvin and we all laughed at them for reaching. Turned out to be a good pick for them.
 
M

Mainejet

Guest
If he is the BAP at number 6, and I'm sure he would be, then we should take him without hesitation. Unless of course some team comes along with a wonderful trade offer.
 

Pointdexter

Pro Bowl Alternate
Jet Fanatics
I definitely respect all the opinions here so I apologize if I come off to brash. I understand wanting to get the very best players out of this draft. My point is this though: I'm not convinced, based on watching a lot of cfb the last 3 years, that LW is more of an impact player than Beasley or Gregory are (who represent a huge need for this roster).

Furthermore, if we address a DT before addressing QB, I will march into 1 Jets Place and punch Macc in the balls myself. I can see us grabbing a LB or even WR at 6, and then going QB in round 2 or 3. But it would be awfully hard to justify, in my opinion, considering the situation we have at the most important position on the field, if we secured depth on the DL before grabbing a QB to groom. It would be unforgivable.

If Mariota and Winston are both gone, then you trade back, pick up an extra 2 (minimum) take Petty, DGB, and Eli Harold with your first 3 picks. Grab Duke Johnson at the top of round 3 and we are cooking.
 

BlindsideD'Brick

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
This is the kind of thinking that cracks me up. And I apologize if this comes off as being a dic as I'm really not intending that. But too many assign an arbitrary value on a player based solely off their early projection in mock drafts, done by those in the media.

Then when a player a drops, we jump up and say we HAVE to take that guy, his "value" is too good to pass up here. Listen, the "value" is imaginary. It wasn't based off anything real; it was based off of a consensus of mock drafts. Now if some of you actually do your homework and watch these guys play, then that is another story. But the bottom line is that most people claiming "Johnny X" is "too good to pass up here" has never seen more than a 3 minute highlight clip and a synopsis off of NFL.com.

The idea that Leonard Williams is going to be significantly better than Beasley or Gregory or Shelton or Goldman or Armistead is nothing but the consensus of media hacks that, more often than not, just copy Kiper's early mocks and tweak theirs slightly.

So this fantasy of forgoing actual need and players that play positions that might help us address weaknesses and become a better football team, and instead taking a DT (when we're stacked there) who some think is "too good to pass up at 6 because the VALUE is too damn high", is just that: fantasy.

It's not happening. No way Macc is THAT bad of a GM. Hell, Idzik wasn't that bad of a GM. Hell, Rich Kotite would have known better. That's how farfetched this idea is.

Well, just about everyone who has an opinion on this draft disagrees with you, Point. And I think you're making a broad assumption in saying that many good draft analysts are copying Kiper's picks. That's oversimplifying the matter.

Most players get at least a few mixed reviews, even top 10 picks. I have yet to read anyone who's unsure about Leonard Williams. It's as close to a consensus top three value pick as they come.

Now you can call it fantasy or whatever else you want to call it. But you're the only person I've seen that's not drinking the "Leonard Williams cool aid". (And for the record, no offense taken. You're a good poster).
 

Green Jets & Ham

King Of All Draftniks
Jet Fanatics
Most players get at least a few mixed reviews, even top 10 picks. I have yet to read anyone who's unsure about Leonard Williams. It's as close to a consensus top three value pick as they come.
This is true, ordinarily if there's a mistake in the consensus, there will at least be one or two voices of prominence who are vocally challenging the consensus, and I actually look for those as we get closer to the draft, I try to see if a Brandt, Casserly, Jeremiah, Polian etc, respected NFL guys who are now a part of the draft media, are expressing reservations about some of the payers the draft gurus love, or the opposite, if they are raving about players the gurus are ignoring. So far I can't find anyone of note who is expressing reservations about Williams.
 
J

Jet Setter

Guest
Well, just about everyone who has an opinion on this draft disagrees with you, Point. And I think you're making a broad assumption in saying that many good draft analysts are copying Kiper's picks. That's oversimplifying the matter.

Most players get at least a few mixed reviews, even top 10 picks. I have yet to read anyone who's unsure about Leonard Williams. It's as close to a consensus top three value pick as they come.

Now you can call it fantasy or whatever else you want to call it. But you're the only person I've seen that's not drinking the "Leonard Williams cool aid". (And for the record, no offense taken. You're a good poster).

I don't particularly like when mob mentality takes over original ideas. Let's not castigate those who have differing opinions simply because they aren't among the herd of sheep, shall we? Majority rules in court proceedings but majority has historically been on the wrong side of most decisions in history. It's a proven fact. I like independent thinkers and those who make their case in spite of conventional "wisdom" that the majority flocks to. Just choose to disagree but please don't demean someone's opinion just because they don't side with fashionable crowd. Thanks.

There's nothing wrong with Poindexter's statement here at all. These guys miss every year. Take a look at the best mock drafts and they boast a putrid 19% correction rate in the 1st round.
 

OCCH

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
I don't particularly like when mob mentality takes over original ideas. Let's not castigate those who have differing opinions simply because they aren't among the herd of sheep, shall we? Majority rules in court proceedings but majority has historically been on the wrong side of most decisions in history. It's a proven fact. I like independent thinkers and those who make their case in spite of conventional "wisdom" that the majority flocks to. Just choose to disagree but please don't demean someone's opinion just because they don't side with fashionable crowd. Thanks.

There's nothing wrong with Poindexter's statement here at all. These guys miss every year. Take a look at the best mock drafts and they boast a putrid 19% correction rate in the 1st round.

As long as we're bearing our souls, I don't like when someone's view is discounted simply because it agrees with the "majority". It's offensive to assume that person hasn't watched as much tape or done as much research as the "independent thinker", just because more people happen to agree with him.

If I came on and told everyone I thought we should grab Brett Hundley with the #6 pick, I doubt you would praise my originality, regardless of whatever argument I presented in his favor.

People come here to debate, and as long as it stays civilized (which Blindside DEFINITELY did) it should be promoted, not belittled.

Otherwise this place becomes just another circle jerk, and that would be a shame with the level of knowledge this place already possesses . . .
 

Pointdexter

Pro Bowl Alternate
Jet Fanatics
Hoping to clear up what seems to be a misconception:

For the record, I like Leonard Williams as a prospect. I think he will, barring injury, be a very good pro. I just don't like him for the Jets. And as I said above, we are still not a roster that has the luxury of adding a 4th great lineman (5th if you include Coples switching back to where he belongs). We are a roster with as shitty of a QB situation as there is in the NFL. We have no one who can consistently rush the passer from the LB position. Let's plug some holes in the dam before we allow for a longer water break for our DL.

I made the point above that you make an exception if you're talking about Ndom Suh. But we're not here. Frankly I'm shocked at how many people want to add depth at a position of strength before adding anything at all at a position of need, one of those positions being the most important on the field.
 

Green Jets & Ham

King Of All Draftniks
Jet Fanatics
Take a look at the best mock drafts and they boast a putrid 19% correction rate in the 1st round.
Thats probably true in the strictest sense and I'm surprised its even that high considering all of the variables. Just one or two early picks can have a domino effect and blow everyones mock draft to smithereens. So for me the value of mock drafts is not necessarily in making precise predictions about which players will go to which teams and in which draft slots, but in giving you a fairly accurate portrayal of the general vicinity where you can anticipate players coming off the board. If a mock draft does that with any degree of success, thats a good and useful mock draft in my view, but thats a lot harder to quantify with a statistical analysis. Not impossible, it can be done, but it requires a more tedious examination.
 

Green Jets & Ham

King Of All Draftniks
Jet Fanatics
Frankly I'm shocked at how many people want to add depth at a position of strength before adding anything at all at a position of need ...
Dex, I posted this about a week or so ago, don't know if you saw it, but you clearly enjoy the draft (draftnik) and I think you will find it interesting, its the different philosophies one can deploy in the draft, from the most popular to the least understood, and thats the last one on this list that speaks directly to the concern you laid out above, though I recommend you read the whole thing in its entirety, its very professional and well written:

http://gbnreport.com/features/draft-day-theories/

Draft Day Theories

The following are several drafting theories, some actually subscribed to by teams, others sometimes in name only:

Draft the best athlete: The most tried and true draft theory, though, it drives a lot of fans, particularly those who are more likely to be looking for a quick fix to distraction. It is also something of a misnomer; best athlete implies you are primarily taking a guy for his athletic ability – speed, vertical leap, weight-room strength etc. – when done correctly it really should read “best player available” (BPA).

Drafting the best player is also based on the notion that drafts are not primarily about fixing a weakness on the team for next year, but rather are part of a longer term building process. Here’s how BPA works, at least in theory:

First, we give each veteran on a particular team a numerical grade which we will call their hypothetical player value (HPV) on a scale of ten. Then a team with a WR with a HPV of 8 and an OG with a HPV of 6 arrives at the draft and has a choice of two players: a WR with an HPV of 9 and an OG with an HPV of 8.

Obviously by taking the OG the team would increase its value at that position by 2 points whereas by taking the WR their total HPV would rise only 1 point. In the short term the team would increase its total HPV by taking the OG.

However, if a team did the same thing over a period of years, that is, took the player with a HPV of 8 at a position of need, but passed on a 9 at another position, at the end of a 5-year period, for example, that team would have a total HPV of 40 from the 5 picks, whereas the higher graded players would have added a total of 45, and everything else being equal a much better team.

Given the incredible vagaries of pro football careers – injuries, FA defections, and the fact that all players develop differently and at different paces – this year’s crisis at OG, for example, may have been solved by an undrafted FA no one counted on, while one at another position suffers a career ending knee injury – drafting the best player available simply maximizes your odds of having the best possible team over the long haul.

Of course, when a team makes its pick there is often not such a clear difference between players; in fact there may be several players with a similar ranking and that’s when that team can focus on which of those players/positions will help that particular team the most.

The problem with BPA, however, is that, almost by definition, it does not do a good job of addressing problem areas. This can be be a major concern, particularly at positions like QB, left offensive tackle, RDE and CB where it is critical that a team have at least a competent player if they hope to be a serious contender. This is where free agency can, and should, come into play.

Shopping lists versus a truly positional draft: Most teams when drafting appear to take a kind of shopping list approach: a WR in the first round, LB in the second, OG in the third, DT in the fourth and so on. I am not sure, however, that this is necessarily very effective when a team is trying to upgrade a really weak position. In fact there is nothing that annoys me more on draft day than when an announcer starts rambling on that “the Catfish have really upgraded their receiver core by taking WR Billy Bob Bumpkin from State U”.

The problem with just taking one player is that it is still all about probabilities, and the probabilities far lower than we all realize. If that one player doesn’t work out for whatever reason that team is ultimately no farther ahead. We believe that if a team really wants to upgrade on a position they actually should consider using a good part of a draft to do it, again because of the generally low probabilities involved.

Team building rather than team fixing: Again, most fans when they look ahead to a draft, start with an assessment of the team’s weaknesses and go from there. As such, they then tend to identify a top player at the weakest position as the ‘player they would pick.’ Most NFL coaches/management, particularly the good ones, however, often look more to proactively build something or a system rather than just look to fill shorter term holes.

It may be to install a more diversified offense or develop an aggressive, attack oriented-defense or simply to get faster across the board; in order to do that, though, they often end up drafting players at positions which seem to be solid. And this phenomenon may be the biggest reason why predicting any draft is so difficult, because if often means having to get ‘inside the head’ of the respective coaches and GMs around the league.

Building from strength: We almost always talk about using the draft to fix weaknesses; this may not always be necessarily the most efficient way to build a team however. In a nutshell, the problem with this approach is that if a team brings a strong player into a weak unit, opponents can quickly neutralize the impact of that player by double-teaming or playing away from them. If on the other hand a team drafts to its strength, it is possible to create a super unit that make all other units on the team better simply because opponents have to invest so much in stopping the good unit that the weaker ones are allowed considerable liberties.
 

NYJDraftKing

King of Quieens
Jet Fanatics
I remember two years ago when most people questioned ... why we would pick Sheldon Richardson when we had so many other areas of need.
 

Elias

The Invisible Man
Big Fish
Jet Fanatics
Jets Global
I remember two years ago when most people questioned ... why we would pick Sheldon Richardson when we had so many other areas of need.

I agree but that move kind of ruined Quinton Coples. I rather have Sheldon but since then Coples has been lost in limbo and his pick was a waste.
 
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