If DT- Leonard Williams is on the board when we pick @ #6 ....

[Pointdexter]

I remember two years ago when most people questioned ... why we would pick Sheldon Richardson when we had so many other areas of need.

Yup, and 12 wins against 20 losses later, despite Richardson't excellent play, we are still a crappy team. This is my whole stupid point. Sometimes it's not about whether the pick is a good player. it's about building the best team. I would trade Richardson in a heartbeat for a competent QB.

As an aside, I was just looking at the 2013 draft and it was an awful. Busts everywhere. Wow.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

As long as we're bearing our souls, I don't like when someone's view is discounted simply because it agrees with the "majority". It's offensive to assume that person hasn't watched as much tape or done as much research as the "independent thinker", just because more people happen to agree with him.

If I came on and told everyone I thought we should grab Brett Hundley with the #6 pick, I doubt you would praise my originality, regardless of whatever argument I presented in his favor.

People come here to debate, and as long as it stays civilized (which Blindside DEFINITELY did) it should be promoted, not belittled.

Otherwise this place becomes just another circle jerk, and that would be a shame with the level of knowledge this place already possesses . . .

I appreciate that, OCCH.

How this got twisted into me "belittling" Pointdexter is beyond me. There was nothing demeaning or out of line with how I responded to him. Some posters need to take some of their own advice regarding civility.

But the way, the idea that the majority opinion constitutes "mob rule" is humorous, to say the least.

 

[Pointdexter]

Brick,

You and I are good. I didn't take offense. I just think he was responding to you saying "everyone agrees but you", kind of using the mob mentality to bully someone out of a reasonable stance. Like I said, I didn't take offense and it's all good, but I see the point Jet Setter was making because I've seen boards like that and they're awful.

Regarding your point about the majority opinion, the funny thing is I firmly believe you and Ham and some others represent the vocal minority. I would expect, if the draft were in NY and we selected a DT (clear luxury pick) in round 1 when we still don't have a QB, the levels of boos would be unprecedented in Radio City. The NY Post and Daily News writers would eat Macc alive the next day. Of course, just my opinion.

 

[Sarge]

I can't believe anyone seriously thinks taking the player generally considered the best overall player in the draft at #6 would be a bad pick or that boos would rain down if we took him. Again, it's a moot point because Williams is so awesome he will be long gone by #6 , but I've never heard anyone say taking the best player in the draft at #6 is a bad idea

If we lucked out and ended up with Williams, which we won't I'd be thrilled.

 

[Pointdexter]

Sarge, it sounds like you're pretty entrenched. If you don't understand why it's important to address other areas of our team, and that it takes more than just good DL play to win in the NFL, I'm not sure what to say.

This was never about whether Williams is a great player, it's a question of whether we would be better off addressing the fact that we have no QB, no legitimate rush LB's, and a shaky WR corps if Marshall doesn't pan out at 31.

At DL we will be excellent, with or without Williams. Doing the math on where we get the best bang for the buck to improve our team isn't rocket science.

 

[Sarge]

Sarge, it sounds like you're pretty entrenched. If you don't understand why it's important to address other areas of our team, and that it takes more than just good DL play to win in the NFL, I'm not sure what to say..

I'M ENTRENCHED!?!?! LOL! You're the one spamming the thread pal, look in the mirror

 

[Jet Setter]

Sarge, it sounds like you're pretty entrenched. If you don't understand why it's important to address other areas of our team, and that it takes more than just good DL play to win in the NFL, I'm not sure what to say.

This was never about whether Williams is a great player, it's a question of whether we would be better off addressing the fact that we have no QB, no legitimate rush LB's, and a shaky WR corps if Marshall doesn't pan out at 31.

At DL we will be excellent, with or without Williams. Doing the math on where we get the best bang for the buck to improve our team isn't rocket science.

This is a glaring example of why BPA is not a realistic entity. You cannot ignore positions of need simply because a great player is available where you have either:
1. Starters in place who are also better than average
2. Payroll tied up in that position for several years
3. Players of need at other positions available in the draft at that pick that can help you build overall team strength now and in the near future

In this example, you would have drafted a DL 4 out of 5 years thereby neglecting other positions of need while in the process ensuring that someone sit while creating a salary balloon at one position that can no longer be afforded and you'll be forced to let someone go as a young veteran thereby in essence drafting one or a few rentals. This happened in TB - does anyone remember? How many remain of that vaunted front four that accumulated 3 1's and a 2nd? One remains. How about Detroit's back-to-back DLinemen? Both gone. It's very difficult to afford a glut of high salaries at one position under the cap rules. This isn't a recommended tact for building a "team" where you have talent spread out into various positions other than one. It's a losing strategy on many levels. It only sounds cool.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

Brick,

You and I are good. I didn't take offense. I just think he was responding to you saying "everyone agrees but you", kind of using the mob mentality to bully someone out of a reasonable stance. Like I said, I didn't take offense and it's all good, but I see the point Jet Setter was making because I've seen boards like that and they're awful.

Regarding your point about the majority opinion, the funny thing is I firmly believe you and Ham and some others represent the vocal minority. I would expect, if the draft were in NY and we selected a DT (clear luxury pick) in round 1 when we still don't have a QB, the levels of boos would be unprecedented in Radio City. The NY Post and Daily News writers would eat Macc alive the next day. Of course, just my opinion.

In no way am I suggesting you cannot disagree with a majority opinion. I welcome dissenting opinions, but to be accused by a poster of demeaning you is a pretty serious accusation, especially when I wasn't disrespectful at all. I respect any well reasoned opinion. I was simply stating that a vast majority of opinion regarding Leonard Williams believes he is a top three pick. That's revealing to me. When you have such widespread agreement about a player, I believe it says something. That's not "mob mentality". That's consensus opinion. Where there's smoke, there's fire. He and Cooper haven't received much in the way of negative criticism for their games. There don't appear to be many (if any) holes in their game, and that's why so many believe they're safe picks.

I don't believe I'm in the minority opinion regarding Williams. I believe the Jets won't even have the chance to select Williams, but if by some chance he did slip to the Jets, I'm just saying it wouldn't be a bad pick. It would represent great value. Now, I agree that the fans would probably boo, and some would hate the pick, and that's fine. It's not a position of big need. (I think we should go OLB, Mariota, or one of the stud WR's, for what it's worth). There's a difference between being in the majority/minority of fan opinion, versus being in the majority/minority of consensus opinion from the more notable college football evaluators.

 

[Pointdexter]

I'M ENTRENCHED!?!?! LOL! You're the one spamming the thread pal, look in the mirror

Time for your blood pressure meds, maybe? I wasn't trying to upset you here, just stating we're at an impasse and I'm ok agreeing to disagree.

Regarding the idea of me "spamming" the thread, most of the debate was directed at me and, personally, I thought it was pretty good discourse on the original thread topic. Sorry if you felt differently. Have a good night, friend.

 

[Pointdexter]

In no way am I suggesting you cannot disagree with a majority opinion. I welcome dissenting opinions, but to be accused by a poster of demeaning you is a pretty serious accusation, especially when I wasn't disrespectful at all. I respect any well reasoned opinion. I was simply stating that a vast majority of opinion regarding Leonard Williams believes he is a top three pick. That's revealing to me. When you have such widespread agreement about a player, I believe it says something. That's not "mob mentality". That's consensus opinion. Where there's smoke, there's fire. He and Cooper haven't received much in the way of negative criticism for their games. There don't appear to be many (if any) holes in their game, and that's why so many believe they're safe picks.

I don't believe I'm in the minority opinion regarding Williams. I believe the Jets won't even have the chance to select Williams, but if by some chance he did slip to the Jets, I'm just saying it wouldn't be a bad pick. It would represent great value. Now, I agree that the fans would probably boo, and some would hate the pick, and that's fine. It's not a position of big need. (I think we should go OLB, Mariota, or one of the stud WR's, for what it's worth). There's a difference between being in the majority/minority of fan opinion, versus being in the majority/minority of consensus opinion from the more notable college football evaluators.

Very reasonable stance and solid post, as usual. To each their own. I think Jet Setter made the argument better than I ever could in the post above. That's pretty much how I feel about it. If we were the Packers and could afford to make a luxury pick then that would be great. I just can't justify ignoring the fact that our future QB prospects are dismal as the roster stands today, and we haven't had a rush LB in years. We are very close to being a legit contender but those areas (along with a few others) have to be addressed. Priority numero uno, in my opinion.

 

[Sarge]

Time for your blood pressure meds, maybe? .

Juvenile passive aggressive put downs seem to be your favorite tactic.

 

[Jet Setter]

Brick,

You and I are good. I didn't take offense. I just think he was responding to you saying "everyone agrees but you", kind of using the mob mentality to bully someone out of a reasonable stance. Like I said, I didn't take offense and it's all good, but I see the point Jet Setter was making because I've seen boards like that and they're awful.

Regarding your point about the majority opinion, the funny thing is I firmly believe you and Ham and some others represent the vocal minority. I would expect, if the draft were in NY and we selected a DT (clear luxury pick) in round 1 when we still don't have a QB, the levels of boos would be unprecedented in Radio City. The NY Post and Daily News writers would eat Macc alive the next day. Of course, just my opinion.

I did take offense on your part. His response listed below was very condescending. He spoke in a tone that conveyed that his way was more reasonable because "others" tend to agree. What does that mean, really? Translation: your opinion counts for jack in his mind. If you aren't part of the establishment, it's unvalued and he essentially says this. See his words again:

Well, just about everyone who has an opinion on this draft disagrees with you, Point.

This is a dismissive tone as he is devaluing your opinion since it's not in alliance with his and others.

And I think you're making a broad assumption in saying that many good draft analysts are copying Kiper's picks. That's oversimplifying the matter.

This means your statement isn't valid either.

Most players get at least a few mixed reviews, even top 10 picks. I have yet to read anyone who's unsure about Leonard Williams.

This is code for "your statement doesn't hold water" once again because the masses have spoken.

It's as close to a consensus top three value pick as they come.

While this may be true, when haven't mock drafts swung and missed badly? I recall two years ago when "everyone" said Shariff Floyd was a top 3 lock just like Williams here. What happened? He fell to the twenties! Sheldon was the 1st DT and no one saw it coming except for a handful of guys like you at the time. Stick to your guns and don't let this guy talk down to you like he is. He doesn't respect your opinion as it's clear he placates you in a manner that made me feel like he was talking to a 3-year old. Dripped with condescendence.

Now you can call it fantasy or whatever else you want to call it. But you're the only person I've seen that's not drinking the "Leonard Williams cool aid". (And for the record, no offense taken. You're a good poster).

More language aimed to ostracize you. You are either with us or against us. If you believe THAT, you're living in a fantasy land. You should be wary of such language. An old trick to force dominion. He's too blind to recognize his tone and he's also avoiding my personal questions of him by continually defending himself through others.

Stay true to who you are even in the face of a blind majority.

 

[ucrenegade]

seriously are we men or highschool children? Another one has to be locked because people can't use the ignore function.

 

[BlindsideD'Brick]

I did take offense on your part. His response listed below was very condescending. He spoke in a tone that conveyed that his way was more reasonable because "others" tend to agree. What does that mean, really? Translation: your opinion counts for jack in his mind. If you aren't part of the establishment, it's unvalued and he essentially says this. See his words again:

Well, just about everyone who has an opinion on this draft disagrees with you, Point.

This is a dismissive tone as he is devaluing your opinion since it's not in alliance with his and others.

And I think you're making a broad assumption in saying that many good draft analysts are copying Kiper's picks. That's oversimplifying the matter.

This means your statement isn't valid either.

Most players get at least a few mixed reviews, even top 10 picks. I have yet to read anyone who's unsure about Leonard Williams.

This is code for "your statement doesn't hold water" once again because the masses have spoken.

It's as close to a consensus top three value pick as they come.

While this may be true, when haven't mock drafts swung and missed badly? I recall two years ago when "everyone" said Shariff Floyd was a top 3 lock just like Williams here. What happened? He fell to the twenties! Sheldon was the 1st DT and no one saw it coming except for a handful of guys like you at the time. Stick to your guns and don't let this guy talk down to you like he is. He doesn't respect your opinion as it's clear he placates you in a manner that made me feel like he was talking to a 3-year old. Dripped with condescendence.

Now you can call it fantasy or whatever else you want to call it. But you're the only person I've seen that's not drinking the "Leonard Williams cool aid". (And for the record, no offense taken. You're a good poster).

More language aimed to ostracize you. You are either with us or against us. If you believe THAT, you're living in a fantasy land. You should be wary of such language. An old trick to force dominion. He's too blind to recognize his tone and he's also avoiding my personal questions of him by continually defending himself through others.

Stay true to who you are even in the face of a blind majority.

I honestly don't think a post of mine has ever been taken as far out of context as right now. I don't know where any of this is coming from. There's a lot of anger here, and I'm not quite sure why. We debate on this board, and disagree. I haven't said anything demeaning, despite protests to the contrary.

Point, you and I are good.

Ucrenegade, copy "ignore" option from here on out.

 

[cysporsche]

Leonard Williams DT 6'5"/300 will be long gone by our pick @ 6. He is a 4-3 DT not NT. When he was recently interviewed, he sounded like a 16 year old boy giggling constantly through his interview !

Go Jets...Cyborg

 

[OCCH]

I did take offense on your part . . . His response was very condescending . . . He spoke in a tone that conveyed that his way was more reasonable . . .

Predictably, we will see comments towards BPA and "you can never have enough quality DT's" but the reality would be that one of your guys sits and that's the kind of move that gets a GM fired. Good luck explaining to Woody that you don't have any sacks or QB pressures because you wanted to get an "extra" star DT. This is sheer fantasy bordering Madden-like mentality.

LOL -- nothing "condescending" or "offensive" there.

Stay true to who you are . . .

 

[Superman55]

If Kate Upton knocked on your door wearing a red teddy and holding a bottle of Dom Perignon, would you let her in?

Best response

 

[Jet Setter]

LOL -- nothing "condescending" or "offensive" there.

Stay true to who you are . . .

Cute.

Thanks for reading my posts.

 

[Greentilldeath]

I would say you need to temper the BPA mentality with a needs mentality also. Picking Williams for a 3-4 D is not addressing a need. Bowles is gonna run the hybrid 3-4.... so who now becomes the rotational player? Richardson (a former 13 pick), Snacks (UFA, but the only true NT we have) or Mo (former 29 pick), or Williams (6 pick). If thats how it falls, trade the pick (detroit would be an option) and secure extra picks. Or keep and pick up a positional need BPA

 

[Green Jets & Ham]

View attachment 548

:smiley-score010: