Making the case in favor of the Pats

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flgreen

Guest
Ah, but that's the thing. We still don't know if teams are allowed to request any level of inflation between 12.5 and 13.5 psi. and whether the officials honored the requests. If so, the starting circumstances for the two sets of balls may have been different. And also, the Colts' ball prep procedure may differ enough from the Pats' to cause different results. No miracle needed, really. But some more facts would be nice. Let's hope the investigators dig them up, and present them.

The NFL had a complaint on their desk, from another owner that they were taking action on. They were doing an investigation before the game even started. They already knew they were going to take comparative measurements, before the game, and at half time.

I guarantee you these balls were treated exactly the same for both teams. When the NFL went into this they knew they had a problem.

Their worst night mare came true at half time. The Pats were cheating. Not just against the Colts, but also against the Ravens who filed the complaint.

If you don't think every one involved didn't cover their ass, oh well
 

Jet Fan RI

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
The NFL had a complaint on their desk, from another owner that they were taking action on. They were doing an investigation before the game even started. They already knew they were going to take comparative measurements, before the game, and at half time.

I guarantee you these balls were treated exactly the same for both teams. When the NFL when into this they knew they had a problem.

Their worst night mare came true at half time. The Pats were cheating. Not just against the Colts, but also against the Ravens who filed the complaint.

If you don't think every one involved didn't cover their ass, oh well

Yes. I saw an article with an interview with ex-NFL official Gerry Austin, who said all balls are pressurized to 13 psi. I also saw an interpretation of the pressure rule that said the intent of the rule is to pressurize all balls to 13 psi +/- 0.5 psi. Unfortunately, I also saw the rule, which says the balls should be 12.5 psi to 13.5 psi. I didn't see anything in the rule that said teams could not request, and officials could not honor, any pressure level between 12.5 and 13.5 psi. Let's hope this all comes out in the investigation.
 
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flgreen

Guest
Right. But if I remember correctly, the race guy on JN said the pressure change in the tires is 11 psi. Here we're only looking for 1 psi.


Actually in spite of what lil bill said today we are looking at 2 psi, which is significant. It's over 15%. That's a lot

BTW RI, I'm not really arguing with you. I understand what you are doing. Playing the Devils advocate, in an indefensible situation. Lil Bill has been caught................again

The only real question is what are the NFL owners going to do about it? If the media storm dies down after the Super Bowl, they will probably buy into the arguments you are making, and sweep it under the rug to protect their billion dollar investment. If the media stays on them..................................................Anything can happen.

Remember we are dealing with 32 teams all who are valued at 1+ billion
 

Johnny Unite Us

Pro Bowl Alternate
Jet Fanatics
Unfortunately, the NFL has no subpoena power, so all the Pats have to do is play ignorant. They are under no legal obligation to tell the truth, provide evidence, or force anyone to testify. The Pats may get a slap on the wrist by the NFL, but hey are under no legal obligation to cooperate. Unless the Feds decide that it impacted gambling laws or something, which is doubtful.
 

Jet Fan RI

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
Actually in spite of what lil bill said today we are looking at 2 psi, which is significant. It's over 15%. That's a lot

BTW RI, I'm not really arguing with you. I understand what you are doing. Playing the Devils advocate, in an indefensible situation. Lil Bill has been caught................again

The only real question is what are the NFL owners going to do about it? If the media storm dies down after the Super Bowl, they will probably buy into the arguments you are making, and sweep it under the rug to protect their billion dollar investment. If the media stays on them..................................................Anything can happen.

Remember we are dealing with 32 teams all who are valued at 1+ billion

Well there are two parts here. I checked the profs' calculations myself for the pressure drop from 70 degrees to 50 degrees. And I found that gives a drop of 1 psi. Then comes the ball prep thing. Billy boy said that caused a 1 psi change. The two effects together give 2 psi. Let's hope the investigators make the Pats do their ball prep thing while they are watching. starting with fresh balls the investigators bring. If the investigators see a 1 psi increase due to ball prep. I think the Pats will, unfortunately, be off the hook.
 
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flgreen

Guest
Yes. I saw an article with an interview with ex-NFL official Gerry Austin, who said all balls are pressurized to 13 psi. I also saw an interpretation of the pressure rule that said the intent of the rule is to pressurize all balls to 13 psi +/- 0.5 psi. Unfortunately, I also saw the rule, which says the balls should be 12.5 psi to 13.5 psi. I didn't see anything in the rule that said teams could not request, and officials could not honor, any pressure level between 12.5 and 13.5 psi. Let's hope this all comes out in the investigation.

Again I'm going to point out that at the beginning of this game, the refs knew there was an investigation going on. They were told that they were to measure the psi in the footballs at half time. This is not the norm. At the minimum they knew something was up with the balls.

Unless these people are total retards, and they are not, they made sure all 24 balls were at the exact same psi to start the game. Just to CYA.
 

Jet Fan RI

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
Again I'm going to point out that at the beginning of this game, the refs knew there was an investigation going on. They were told that they were to measure the psi in the footballs at half time. This is not the norm. At the minimum they knew something was up with the balls.

Unless these people are total retards, and they are not, they made sure all 24 balls were at the exact same psi to start the game. Just to CYA.

I hope you're right. If so, the Pat's goose is cooked. I'm only pointing out the lack of facts that still would be consistent with the rules. We'll have to hope the investigators uncover the details. And also hope the fix isn't in.
 
F

flgreen

Guest
Unfortunately, the NFL has no subpoena power, so all the Pats have to do is play ignorant. They are under no legal obligation to tell the truth, provide evidence, or force anyone to testify. The Pats may get a slap on the wrist by the NFL, but hey are under no legal obligation to cooperate. Unless the Feds decide that it impacted gambling laws or something, which is doubtful.


Your right, the NFL isn't bound by the constitution of the United States. They don't have subpoena power. They don't need it. They are basically a corporation, with franchise. They can revoke the ownership of any Franchise, for any reason. You don't have constitutional rights as a franchise owner. You exist at the whim of your peers.

Much in the way, that is always in the news, about these dumb ass condominium associations seizing ownership of an individuals home because he fly's an American flag on his property, which is in violation of condo charter. No constitution there. No constitution in the NFL either.

You either comply with what they want, or they can punish you. Take your billion dollar investment. Last one it happened to, that I can recall, was Trost? Trucker guy who owned the Eagles. Just from my failing memory.

NFL is more powerful then the US court.......................In certain ball parks at least
 

Johnny Unite Us

Pro Bowl Alternate
Jet Fanatics
Your right, the NFL isn't bound by the constitution of the United States. They don't have subpoena power. They don't need it. They are basically a corporation, with franchise. They can revoke the ownership of any Franchise, for any reason. You don't have constitutional rights as a franchise owner. You exist at the whim of your peers.

Much in the way, that is always in the news, about these dumb ass condominium associations seizing ownership of an individuals home because he fly's an American flag on his property, which is in violation of condo charter. No constitution there. No constitution in the NFL either.

You either comply with what they want, or they can punish you. Take your billion dollar investment. Last one it happened to, that I can recall, was Trost? Trucker guy who owned the Eagles. Just from my failing memory.

NFL is more powerful then the US court.......................In certain ball parks at least

Yes, but in this case, the NFL would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. They are not going to conduct an investigation and have the result of that investigation call into question the integrity of their own game. So, you won't get an honest investigation unless someone with subpoena power comes in. And, they can't revoke the ownership of any franchise for any reason. They have a charter, which is essentially their constitution, and the rules for revoking a franchise are laid out clearly. Furthermore, they can't "take away your billion dollar investment". In theory, they could force an owner to sell his franchise, but they can't just take it away. And, NFL franchises are worth closer to $3+ billion on average right now. The popular magazines that list franchise values, like Forbes for example, are vastly underestimating the value of professional sports franchises. For example, they estimates the value of the LA Clippers at $1 billion. Steve Ballmer paid $2 billion. I'll side with Steve Ballmer over some journalist at Forbes any day. All they do is try to estimate team revenues and then slap a 5x multiple on that. They totally underestimate the value of content going forward and the battle that media distributors are going to face to provide content through almost infinite distribution channels. And, this is just starting on a global basis. We're in the third inning in terms of the increase in the value of sports content. If the LA Clippers are worth $2 billion, the Patriots are probably worth $4 billion, the Cowboys probably $5. God knows what the Yankees and Manchester United are worth. I study sports law and team valuations all day, basically every day. If you want more detail, send me a PM.
 

Jet Fan RI

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
Yes, but in this case, the NFL would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. They are not going to conduct an investigation and have the result of that investigation call into question the integrity of their own game. So, you won't get an honest investigation unless someone with subpoena power comes in. And, they can't revoke the ownership of any franchise for any reason. They have a charter, which is essentially their constitution, and the rules for revoking a franchise are laid out clearly. Furthermore, they can't "take away your billion dollar investment". In theory, they could force an owner to sell his franchise, but they can't just take it away. And, NFL franchises are worth closer to $3+ billion on average right now. The popular magazines that list franchise values, like Forbes for example, are vastly underestimating the value of professional sports franchises. For example, they estimates the value of the LA Clippers at $1 billion. Steve Ballmer paid $2 billion. I'll side with Steve Ballmer over some journalist at Forbes any day. All they do is try to estimate team revenues and then slap a 5x multiple on that. They totally underestimate the value of content going forward and the battle that media distributors are going to face to provide content through almost infinite distribution channels. And, this is just starting on a global basis. We're in the third inning in terms of the increase in the value of sports content. If the LA Clippers are worth $2 billion, the Patriots are probably worth $4 billion, the Cowboys probably $5. God knows what the Yankees and Manchester United are worth. I study sports law and team valuations all day, basically every day. If you want more detail, send me a PM.

I saw a report somewhere that said the NFL brought in somebody independent with integrity to conduct the investigation. We can only hope.
 
U

ucrenegade

Guest
I'll have to defer that question to Renegade, he's our resident piston head. No question NASCAR has all these elements down to a science.

Kind of suspect though from the casual observer, there is a major difference from a 2,500 pound car, doing 200+ MPH, making sharp left turns every 1/4 mile, to a foot ball getting hand jobs from Tom Brady every 1/2 hour.[/QUOTE


That is true NASCAR does have it down to a science but you have to remember your talking machines. Their is thousands of tire revolution's per lap and not only that but the surface temperature of the track is increased. The car could take 30-50 laps to get the proper psi they were aiming for. That is a lot of time on those mile tracks. So unless the pats were storing their balls in a freezer they wouldn't lose that much psi from the cold.
 

Jet Fan RI

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
I'll have to defer that question to Renegade, he's our resident piston head. No question NASCAR has all these elements down to a science.

Kind of suspect though from the casual observer, there is a major difference from a 2,500 pound car, doing 200+ MPH, making sharp left turns every 1/4 mile, to a foot ball getting hand jobs from Tom Brady every 1/2 hour.[/QUOTE


That is true NASCAR does have it down to a science but you have to remember your talking machines. Their is thousands of tire revolution's per lap and not only that but the surface temperature of the track is increased. The car could take 30-50 laps to get the proper psi they were aiming for. That is a lot of time on those mile tracks. So unless the pats were storing their balls in a freezer they wouldn't lose that much psi from the cold.

Let's hope the investigators try the testing Bellichik claims the Pats did and get different results.
 
S

sg3

Guest
Interesting front pages on both the News and Post today...

Two career criminals

Silver and Belicrap
 
S

sg3

Guest
Nice shirt
 

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sg3

Guest
To be fair..

Pats pulpit, Fitzy, patsfanken, and PatsFanTX all agree that these chahges and allegations against the Pats are all "wicked incorrect, wicked inaccurate and wicked false"

BB proved it scientifically just yesterday. Time to move on to Arizona
 

Jet Fan RI

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
Here's the fumble rate graph from the article that says the Pats' fumble rate is impossibly good. The chart covers all NFL teams for the last 5 years. The circles show total fumbles for each team. The squares with lines between them are the fumble rate of each team, with fumble rate defined as the number of offensive plays between fumbles. It would have been better if punts and kickoffs were included, but this still makes the point. New England is on the right edge.

fumble rate.jpg
 
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ucrenegade

Guest
To be fair..

Pats pulpit, Fitzy, patsfanken, and PatsFanTX all agree that these chahges and allegations against the Pats are all "wicked incorrect, wicked inaccurate and wicked false"

BB proved it scientifically just yesterday. Time to move on to Arizona


you should ask them why would Bill Nye lie?
 
J

jetrider

Guest
I agree it's senseless to compare a racing tire that operates at somewhere between 140-220 degrees F internal heat and its rotational speed to that of a football.

Whoever posted that just felt like showcasing his other hobby. Here's all the physics you really need:

If you insert an inflator needle in the valve of a properly inflated game-ready NFL football and let the air bleed out for a few seconds, the pressure will drop in PSI to where Tom Brady wants it.

Done. Mystery solved.

Don't let a shifty-eyed thug tell you he followed the rules precisely when he also told you he had no knowledge of how or when the balls were handled or who handled them.

Don't let a convicted cheater who looks for every possible competitive advantage over an opponent tell you he was oblivious to the equipment they use.

Don't let him tell you he gave no thought to the most important object on the field when he already rambled on in great detail about how they prep the balls in practice to make them worse than those in a game.

Why would they put more thought into practice balls than they put into actual game balls?

Belichick and Brady are pathological liars. They need doctors not physicists.
 
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ucrenegade

Guest
so arguing with a pats fan and he says he believes BB because of this

 
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