Is David Harris contract Really One of FA's Worst?

[mykcuz]

Get used to guys making more money, the salary cap is a whole new game. And guys are going to jump teams quicker, which means teams that value continuity are going to have to pay.

 

[mykcuz]

Yeah, I heard that theory from you already. Can't agree. We've seen Harris exposed when Revis was here before. Belichick brilliantly deployed a 2-TE attack which sent the Jets defense reeling from Rex' 3rd year on.

Which is why Antonio Allen brilliantly covered gronk, and we lost 2 games to the pats by less than 3 points this season?

 

[mykcuz]

Yeah, I heard that theory from you already. Can't agree. We've seen Harris exposed when Revis was here before. Belichick brilliantly deployed a 2-TE attack which sent the Jets defense reeling from Rex' 3rd year on.

You don't agree or secondary sucked? You can't say Harris want out of position is a fact.

 

[Jet Setter]

You've been given many examples and have ignored them.

What exactly did I ignore? Please cite examples.

Just because Harris has been down statistically, doesn't mean his skills are deteriorating.

I would argue it is a strong indication. I also happen to watch the games and can't help but notice his missing a lot of open-space tackles and always trailing in pursuit. He was never a blazer to begin with. At 31, he's not getting any faster.

I argue he has looked poor to the outside eye because our defense was so under staffed, that Rex had to get creative. Rex took Harris out of position and had him covering slot receivers throughout the entire year. If he did that to mo, would you say mo is a bust?

You have no proof of this. I think you just made it up. Feel free to support with evidence or links. I have to ask you why would Rex do that? And you're claiming he was assigned all slot coverage. Not the case.

Going forward, Harris was slightly payed above his worth because Rex would have signed him.

That's an assumption. Again, no proof of this, merely wild speculation.

Yet it's only a2 year deal. Which tells me 2 things, this staff clearly disagrees with your talent assessment,and so does buffalo's.

That's fine. I stand by my disagreement. What's your point?

Now that we have an adequate secondary, Harris can be utilized correctly.

Says you. I don't believe his struggles are to be blamed on the secondary. As I mentioned earlier, he struggled when Revis and Cro were here in act 1.

Had we let him go, we would have created a weak spot at lb.

And I maintain the position could have been strengthened. It was one of those many points I addressed. Bruce Carter was the one I targeted.

Instead we maintained a capable lb core, d line core, and have a top 2 secondary. Worst case, this is a2 year experiment, best case we have no holes on defense and wr draft another lb this year to grow with demario.

I've grown tired of this failed experiment. That's why I've challenged you and others on this signing.

That would give us a young guy in waiting, Beasley, a guy in his prime demario, and a healthy veteran barely 30.

Getting a pass rushing OLB is probably in the cards but it has nothing to do with Harris. And yes, Davis is here, so? Harris turned 31 in January. Wrong on that.

 

[mykcuz]

Getting a pass rushing OLB is probably in the cards but it has nothing to do with Harris. And yes, Davis is here, so? Harris turned 31 in January. Wrong on that.

I guess you know something no one else knows, even cimini in the original article was downplaying the claim. The fact that you were the only one responding who was stunned by the signing says something.

 

[Jet Setter]

You don't agree or secondary sucked? You can't say Harris want out of position is a fact.

Not the point. I can see you and I aren't on the same wavelength. Every response from you is drifting elsewhere. I keep trying to reel you in. Probably best not to continue. I'm not going to agree with any of your assumptions.

 

[Jet Setter]

I guess you know something no one else knows, even cimini in the original article was downplaying the claim. The fact that you were the only one responding who was stunned by the signing says something.

And I guess you believe that the majority is always right. Hey, that's all the proof you need then. Just listen to Cimini. He's never wrong.
And for the record, I don't claim to know anything. I was merely giving my opinion. That's what we do here.

 

[mykcuz]

Not the point. I can see you and I aren't on the same wavelength. Every response from you is drifting elsewhere. I keep trying to reel you in. Probably best not to continue. I'm not going to agree with any of your assumptions.

This is a direct response to your qoute, how is that drifting?
Bottom line, money doesn't matter this year, we got every fa we wanted and if we didn't it wasn't for a lack of money. I believe Harris will have a big impact over this 2 year contract due to a strong line and wr's being covered tightly with Pryor blitzing, Harris will be sniffing it the inevitable screens.
You believe it's a bad signing. In 6 months we'll begin to see.

 

[Jet Setter]

This is a direct response to your qoute, how is that drifting?

No it isn't.

Bottom line, money doesn't matter this year, we got every fa we wanted and if we didn't it wasn't for a lack of money. I believe Harris will have a big impact over this 2 year contract due to a strong line and wr's being covered tightly with Pryor blitzing, Harris will be sniffing it the inevitable screens.
You believe it's a bad signing. In 6 months we'll begin to see.

Good-bye.

 

[Superman55]

Well, I think it is a legit question if Harris has the worst contract of this FA period. People are looking at it from a value standpoint of Harris' skill sets, but I even wonder from a playing time perspective if it makes sense...Bowles played 63% of his snaps in nickel and led the league in most defensive formations with 6 DBs on the field in the NFL. I assume we'''' generally see Snacks come off the field in nickel, Coples going dline, Wilkerson shifting inside, and a CB coming on the field (skrine)...then in dime Harris comes out and another DB comes on (Milliner or Allen unless Allen comes in for Pryor in the nickel, possible). I also wonder if pryor gets some looks at LB in certain packages for Harris.

I too wonder if Harris only plays 50-60% of snaps, if he's worth $7 mill...not because Harris cant play anymore, but because Davis will be our every down LB because he's our best in coverage. This signing had me sratching my head a little, not because its a bad signing, but because I wonder how much reduced PT Harris gets as he gets older and we need him on 1st down only in the future...

 

[marac]

With Bowles likely to run a Big Nickle base D coupled with the additions to our secondary, Harris should be able to play with in his comfort zone (Downhill) on most downs that he on the field...

 

[hobson54]

You're straying from the point. I never questioned his ability to make calls or position players.

My point was directed towards Hyatt's assertion that he is there to develop talent. He's not going to develop an OLB. Sorry. Not happening. And my point was there is no talent at ILB for him to groom. Follow?

well if there's no young ILB for him to groom, who exactly are you suggesting replaces him in the middle of the defense?

harris has led the team in tackles every year since 2009 (missed parts of 2008 due to injury). he's someone who can add 5 or 6 sacks a year, calls the plays on defense, and was identified by bowles and the defensive coaching staff as a must keep and the player they reached out to immediately to hope to retain. reports were the bills, dolphins and browns, at a minimum were interested in him.

with no young player on the roster available to replace him, the jets may have overpaid a bit to keep him. it won't hurt their cap this year, and after next year, there's no guaranteed money left. so it's really only a 2 year deal, with a team option for the 3rd year.

 

[Jet Setter]

well if there's no young ILB for him to groom, who exactly are you suggesting replaces him in the middle of the defense?

harris has led the team in tackles every year since 2009 (missed parts of 2008 due to injury). he's someone who can add 5 or 6 sacks a year, calls the plays on defense, and was identified by bowles and the defensive coaching staff as a must keep and the player they reached out to immediately to hope to retain. reports were the bills, dolphins and browns, at a minimum were interested in him.

with no young player on the roster available to replace him, the jets may have overpaid a bit to keep him. it won't hurt their cap this year, and after next year, there's no guaranteed money left. so it's really only a 2 year deal, with a team option for the 3rd year.

You have to go back to my reply to Hyatt for that. That was his assertion that Harris was retained to groom young players. My point was exactly what you stated: who?
But I was looking at other options in FA most notably Bruce Carter who had 5 INT's last season as an ILB. He was signed for 5M per year and is 27 and runs a 4.57. Better pursuit, better coverage and far younger and cheaper. That was who I thought they'd be chasing.

And yes, I'm aware of who was reportedly interested in him but you don't make such decisions being swayed by the competition. You do what's best for your organization first. Then you look at competitive advantages.

As for the rest, I've explained myself in full. Feel free to go back as I've made my case against this signing. I'm not on board with it.

 

[Jet Setter]

With Bowles likely to run a Big Nickle base D coupled with the additions to our secondary, Harris should be able to play with in his comfort zone (Downhill) on most downs that he on the field...

That's a good point.

 

[Superman55]

That's a good point.

big nickel may see Pryor take Harris' place at LB, Allen go to safety for Pryor to improve coverage, and skrine come in as the nickel back...hard to say today.

 

[hobson54]

But I was looking at other options in FA most notably Bruce Carter who had 5 INT's last season as an ILB. He was signed for 5M per year and is 27 and runs a 4.57. Better pursuit, better coverage and far younger and cheaper. That was who I thought they'd be chasing.

well carter may be younger and faster and had a very unusual 5 ints last year (zero in his career before last year). but i'm guessing the jets wanted someone to anchor the middle of the defense and be stout against the run. carter had 68, 96 and 70 total tackles each of the last 3 years. harris had 124, 124 and 123. carter had 2, 1 and 0 sacks in that period, versus 6, 2 and 3 for harris.

so they don't seem to me to be comparable players. maybe carter is better in coverage. and he's definitely younger and faster. but bowles obviously was looking for a different type of LB to play in the middle of his defense

 

[Jet Setter]

well carter may be younger and faster and had a very unusual 5 ints last year (zero in his career before last year). but i'm guessing the jets wanted someone to anchor the middle of the defense and be stout against the run. carter had 68, 96 and 70 total tackles each of the last 3 years. harris had 124, 124 and 123. carter had 2, 1 and 0 sacks in that period, versus 6, 2 and 3 for harris.

so they don't seem to me to be comparable players. maybe carter is better in coverage. and he's definitely younger and faster. but bowles obviously was looking for a different type of LB to play in the middle of his defense

...obviously so. I'm just still scratching my head as I usually see logic in most Jet transactions. This one stumps me.

 

[Superman55]

well carter may be younger and faster and had a very unusual 5 ints last year (zero in his career before last year). but i'm guessing the jets wanted someone to anchor the middle of the defense and be stout against the run. carter had 68, 96 and 70 total tackles each of the last 3 years. harris had 124, 124 and 123. carter had 2, 1 and 0 sacks in that period, versus 6, 2 and 3 for harris.

so they don't seem to me to be comparable players. maybe carter is better in coverage. and he's definitely younger and faster. but bowles obviously was looking for a different type of LB to play in the middle of his defense

David Harris is a "Mike" or strong side linebacker. Demario Davis and Bruce Carter are "Will" or weakside linebackers. We're talking apples and oranges here. Sean Lee was the Cowboys penciled in Mike LB last year...that crazy kid from PSU.

 

[isired]

With Bowles likely to run a Big Nickle base D coupled with the additions to our secondary, Harris should be able to play with in his comfort zone (Downhill) on most downs that he on the field...

That's a good point.

That's the point I've seen most make regarding the signing, that it's a lot of money for a guy that's not likely to see 60% of the D snaps. But I'd counter that we do need a tackling machine for those snaps, and we had one, we had the money, so we did the deal. Did we overpay? Probably, a bit. But I think it's a case where he's worth a little more to us (need the run stuffer on his downs, need the D leader, new regime wants some continuity, and, yes, letting him continue to be all of those things for Rex, in our division, probably wasn't appealing either).

 

[hobson54]

more on bruce carter. doesn't exactly sound like a fit for a 3-4 ILB.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...latest-contract-details-comments-and-reaction

Bruce Carter's four-year run roaming the middle of the field in Dallas is over. The team announced the free-agent linebacker and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers agreed to a four-year contract Wednesday.

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported Carter's deal is worth $20.5 million over the next four years.

Carter, 27, was a second-round pick by Dallas in 2011. He's been a regular fixture in the Cowboys' linebacking corps each of the last three seasons, starting an average of more than 10 games per year. Though his performance was highly variant during much of that time—the Cowboys benched him on a few different occasions—Carter had his best statistical year in 2014.

The North Carolina product made 82 tackles, one sack and a team-high five interceptions, a surprising leap given he hadn't picked off a pass in his previous three seasons. It was a perfect time for Carter, long an enigmatic figure in the Dallas locker room, to come out of his shell.

“His whole thing is it’s never been physical attributes, it’s never been athletic ability,” Cowboys linebackers coach Matt Eberflus said, per Brandon George of the Dallas Morning News. “Now he’s getting his eyes in the right spot. His eye focus and his eye discipline, where to look and what to look for, and that’s why you see him playing quicker. He looks instinctive. He looks better. But it’s really eye discipline."

While the counting stats and film looked better than ever, underlying statistics show Carter's improvement might have been less than previously indicated. Carter ranked 26th among 4-3 outside linebackers in run-stop percentage, 38th in tackling efficiency and 23rd in pass-rushing productivity, per Pro Football Focus. Even Carter's excellence in coverage was a bit of boom or bust. Opposing quarterbacks completed nearly three-quarters of their passes in his direction.

All of this might be a reason the Cowboys weren't as strident in their pursuit of Carter as their other free agents. They've spent four years assessing his talent and attempting to push him into making the most of it; that he's still below-average in a number of categories has to be frustrating. It also doesn't help that Dallas is perpetually in cap trouble, making it unable to match the type of deal Carter was bound to get on the open market.

Tampa Bay will hope its financial investment pays off far more consistently than it did for Dallas. Otherwise, we might be revisiting the whole enigma thing here again in 12 months.