bruce carter was jet setters suggested replacement for harris.
the question is if we moved on from harris, who do we replace him with?
bruce carter was jet setters suggested replacement for harris.
the question is if we moved on from harris, who do we replace him with?
Well, the answer would have to be a cheap option like Brandon Spikes or a guy in the draft. Carter is undersized to play MIKE, IMO.
J
Jet Setter
Guest
Yeah, I guess Rolando McClain probably played the mike position in Dallas. So you're right, Carter would've been a bad fit after all and sliding Davis over wouldn't remedy that.
J
Jet Setter
Guest
And Rolando McClain was lined up to get a nice payday until he suffered consecutive concussions the last two playoff games and now facing a 4-game suspension. Bad timing for his free agency. You could get him also real cheap. He was playing real well.
well brandon spikes is still sitting at home waiting for his phone to ring. interesting that there was reportedly a lot of interest in harris, yet none of these same teams have shown any interest in spikes. i'm sure he will eventually find a home, but it's not like he's a white hot player in this crazy FA market.
as to a rookie, it's risky to assume a rookie can just step in and be in the middle of bowles' defense. plus that would be one less draft pick available to address other needs.
again, i agree that we overpaid on harris. but he seemed to be in demand by a few teams and was identified right away by bowles and staff as a priority. i'd have to think they have a plan for him. and there seems to be a lack of great alternatives, other than a guy still looking for work or rolling the dice on a draft pick (while also taking away a pick needed to address other needs).
Harris is the 10th highest paid MLB. Does this feel right?
2015 Inside Linebacker Average Rankings
PLAYER 2015 AVERAGE
1 Lawrence Timmons
Lawrence Timmons
INSIDE LINEBACKER $9,559,150
2 Navorro Bowman
Navorro Bowman
INSIDE LINEBACKER $9,050,000
3 Brian Cushing
Brian Cushing
INSIDE LINEBACKER $8,750,000
4 James Laurinaitis
James Laurinaitis
INSIDE LINEBACKER $8,300,000
5 Daryl Washington
Daryl Washington
INSIDE LINEBACKER $8,000,000
6 Steven Johnson
Steven Johnson
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,850,000
7 DeMeco Ryans
DeMeco Ryans
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,800,000
8 Paul Posluszny
Paul Posluszny
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,500,000
9 Donald Butler
Donald Butler
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,400,000
10 David Harris
David Harris
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,166,667
11 Jerod Mayo
Jerod Mayo
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,121,429
12 Sean Lee
Sean Lee
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,000,000
13 Curtis Lofton
Curtis Lofton
INSIDE LINEBACKER $6,000,000
Karlos Dansby
Karlos Dansby
INSIDE LINEBACKER $6,000,000
15 Jon Beason
Jon Beason
INSIDE LINEBACKER $5,666,667
2015 Inside Linebacker Average Rankings
PLAYER 2015 AVERAGE
1 Lawrence Timmons
Lawrence Timmons
INSIDE LINEBACKER $9,559,150
2 Navorro Bowman
Navorro Bowman
INSIDE LINEBACKER $9,050,000
3 Brian Cushing
Brian Cushing
INSIDE LINEBACKER $8,750,000
4 James Laurinaitis
James Laurinaitis
INSIDE LINEBACKER $8,300,000
5 Daryl Washington
Daryl Washington
INSIDE LINEBACKER $8,000,000
6 Steven Johnson
Steven Johnson
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,850,000
7 DeMeco Ryans
DeMeco Ryans
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,800,000
8 Paul Posluszny
Paul Posluszny
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,500,000
9 Donald Butler
Donald Butler
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,400,000
10 David Harris
David Harris
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,166,667
11 Jerod Mayo
Jerod Mayo
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,121,429
12 Sean Lee
Sean Lee
INSIDE LINEBACKER $7,000,000
13 Curtis Lofton
Curtis Lofton
INSIDE LINEBACKER $6,000,000
Karlos Dansby
Karlos Dansby
INSIDE LINEBACKER $6,000,000
15 Jon Beason
Jon Beason
INSIDE LINEBACKER $5,666,667
again, same price is an annualized concept (and clay was actually more). granted we don't know the breakdown on clay's contract, so it's hard to compare the two. but harris' is really just a 2 year deal, with a team option on year 3. from what we know, clay is getting $12 mil per for the first 2 years and $7.6 mil on a 5-year basis.
as to other MLB, not sure who else is out there to compare to? it was a pretty shallow pool, which is part of why i think they paid up to keep the known quantity.
There seems to be some small confusion about one of HYATT™'s previous replies regarding Harris training up younger talent - since there is no younger talent immediately available for him to train on the roster.
That's KIND OF the point, isn't it?
The Jets certainly are not going into the season with ONLY Harris at MIKE ILB, (more on MIKE ILB later), and they don't look to be wanting to invest in any ILB free agents left either - which leaves only one alternative source of acquiring one or more of them - the NFL draft.
Draft picks, the very definition of which is YOUNG PLAYERS, for Harris to school up.
Honestly, I guess I shouldn't be surprised after all these years of dealing with it - yet, I still am - about how quickly people push in the clutch to disengage their brain gear when participating in what is supposed to be INTELLIGENT football discussions.
The above corollary, I would have thought, was SO damn obvious that it should never have been required to be spelled out.
Guess again, HYATT™. :smiley-angry046:
LINEBACKERS
NFL defenses primarily use one of 2 systems - the 3-4 defense, with 4 linebackers, or the 4-3 defense with 3 linebackers.
Each has appropriated the same terms for their linebacker positions and responsibilities, though of necessity the 3-4 had to come up with one extra over the 4-3.
From left to right of the defense they are as follows;
SAM (strong side outside)
TED (strong side inside - only in 3-4 sets)
MIKE (weak side inside)
WILL (weak side outside)
Positional responsibilities change a bit, depending on which system is in play.
SAM is foremost charged with holding the strong side edge, (offensive RT, RG, & TE blocking for a runner), on running plays and preventing the TE from opening up underneath along the strong side sideline - in BOTH systems - though his pass coverage duties are slightly more accented in the 4-3 system, where there is no TED linebacker to pick up TEs and slot receivers coming across underneath.
SAM linebackers tend to be a little slower afoot and a little bigger in heft than other LBs in a 4-3, except for MIKE LBs who are often pretty big, in the 248#+ range no matter which system they play in.
SAM linebackers are also the backup pass-rushing LOLB in 3-4 defenses, with first responsibility going to the ROLB, who takes the place of the 4-3 pass-rush DE in the 3-4 system.
On pass plays BOTH the SAM and WILL LBs are expected to get to the QB, while the 3-4 DEs keep them clean by sucking up double-teams of an OT & TE/OG.
TED linebackers are exclusive to 3-4 defensive fronts. Their primary occupation is to provide tight coverages on any RB, slot receiver, or TE, who runs a shallow quick slant, shallow crossing play, or shallow inside curl/button routes.
TED linebackers are expected to absorb strong side inside runs and be the first of the 2 ILBs to attempt an inside blitz, if called, while the MIKE linebacker picks up his rear and protects the middle in case the TED misses his assignment or tackle as he heads upfield after the QB or RB behind the LoS.
TED linebackers are also charged with coverage on deeper middle of the field pass coverages on TEs and slot WRs, so nimble feet and smooth hips are in the job description of good TED linebackers. 40 speed and read & react drill numbers, (splits and 3-cone) are more important for TED than for MIKE ILBs, & TED linebackers are often the smallest LBs in a 3-4 defense, weighing as little as the mid-230# range. Big Safeties (225#+) are also employed as TED linebackers in certain 4-3 looks where there is only single-high coverage deep.
MIKE linebackers are the on-field coach of the front 7 and can dictate Safety coverages as well.
They are responsible for making sure everyone behind the DL is in place and ready to execute sudden shifts to confuse the offensive line. You'll often see very subtle hand motions, (at hip level), as the MIKE ILB waves off or brings up coverages, based on his read of the offense's set, and when calling the timing of any swing stunt blitzes the LBs have planned.
MIKE ILBs tend to be big, though not exclusively. 248#-255# is the weight range for them, as opposed to the low to middle 240#-ish range for OLBs in a 4-3 and the 255# or bigger range for OLBs in 3-4 defenses.
In certain 4-3 defenses, the MIKE ILB is actually the smaller guy, but usually only if the DTs are massive oaks growing roots and the DEs are also on the large side for 4-3 DEs, in the 265#-275# class.
In that type of 4-3 system, the MIKE or Middle Linebacker is the only guy to cover TEs and slot receivers across the middle, (with some Safety and nickle CB help), and must necessarily be fast - sideline to sideline fast - as well as have very good pass coverage skills.
MIKE linebackers tend to be the designated inside/delay run-blitzers in either system, and will use the TED ILB to clear a path for them.
WILL linebackers who are undersized, but fast, can make the switch to MIKE pretty easily but tend to not make the best run-stuffers or blitzers inside.
Last but not least we come to perhaps the most demanding linebackers spot.
WILL or ROLBs are the designated pass rushers in a 3-4 defense, against right-handed QBs.
WILL linebackers in both systems need speed, to get to the edge on the larger side of the offensive field, to cover Flanker/Split End WRs & the occasional weak side TE & out-route slot receiver in the shallow part of their routes, to get in front of RBs, (who tend to have slightly better foot speed than LBs by virtue of being smaller & lighter), on the weak side edge, and they still have pass-rush duties even in the 4-3.
3-4 "WILL" (ROLBs) ARE the pass rushers for that defensive system, yet STILL have to have all the other qualities of a 4-3 ROLB as well.
PLUS, 3-4 WILL OLBs need great agility to evade, undercut, and get around the outside of, the best blocking offensive lineman - the Left Tackle - on both run and pass plays.
WILL OLB is the premiere LB position in the NFL, regardless of system, and most of them command significantly higher salaries than other LBs, inside or out.
Long arms, height, and big wingspan, is a definite advantage for WILL LBs.
I haven't covered all the LB spots in great detail, that was just an overview - but I do hope it helps others to better understand the distinctions between the 4 LB positions.
David Harris is a MIKE ILB, incidentally.
That's KIND OF the point, isn't it?
The Jets certainly are not going into the season with ONLY Harris at MIKE ILB, (more on MIKE ILB later), and they don't look to be wanting to invest in any ILB free agents left either - which leaves only one alternative source of acquiring one or more of them - the NFL draft.
Draft picks, the very definition of which is YOUNG PLAYERS, for Harris to school up.
Honestly, I guess I shouldn't be surprised after all these years of dealing with it - yet, I still am - about how quickly people push in the clutch to disengage their brain gear when participating in what is supposed to be INTELLIGENT football discussions.
The above corollary, I would have thought, was SO damn obvious that it should never have been required to be spelled out.
Guess again, HYATT™. :smiley-angry046:
LINEBACKERS
NFL defenses primarily use one of 2 systems - the 3-4 defense, with 4 linebackers, or the 4-3 defense with 3 linebackers.
Each has appropriated the same terms for their linebacker positions and responsibilities, though of necessity the 3-4 had to come up with one extra over the 4-3.
From left to right of the defense they are as follows;
SAM (strong side outside)
TED (strong side inside - only in 3-4 sets)
MIKE (weak side inside)
WILL (weak side outside)
Positional responsibilities change a bit, depending on which system is in play.
SAM is foremost charged with holding the strong side edge, (offensive RT, RG, & TE blocking for a runner), on running plays and preventing the TE from opening up underneath along the strong side sideline - in BOTH systems - though his pass coverage duties are slightly more accented in the 4-3 system, where there is no TED linebacker to pick up TEs and slot receivers coming across underneath.
SAM linebackers tend to be a little slower afoot and a little bigger in heft than other LBs in a 4-3, except for MIKE LBs who are often pretty big, in the 248#+ range no matter which system they play in.
SAM linebackers are also the backup pass-rushing LOLB in 3-4 defenses, with first responsibility going to the ROLB, who takes the place of the 4-3 pass-rush DE in the 3-4 system.
On pass plays BOTH the SAM and WILL LBs are expected to get to the QB, while the 3-4 DEs keep them clean by sucking up double-teams of an OT & TE/OG.
TED linebackers are exclusive to 3-4 defensive fronts. Their primary occupation is to provide tight coverages on any RB, slot receiver, or TE, who runs a shallow quick slant, shallow crossing play, or shallow inside curl/button routes.
TED linebackers are expected to absorb strong side inside runs and be the first of the 2 ILBs to attempt an inside blitz, if called, while the MIKE linebacker picks up his rear and protects the middle in case the TED misses his assignment or tackle as he heads upfield after the QB or RB behind the LoS.
TED linebackers are also charged with coverage on deeper middle of the field pass coverages on TEs and slot WRs, so nimble feet and smooth hips are in the job description of good TED linebackers. 40 speed and read & react drill numbers, (splits and 3-cone) are more important for TED than for MIKE ILBs, & TED linebackers are often the smallest LBs in a 3-4 defense, weighing as little as the mid-230# range. Big Safeties (225#+) are also employed as TED linebackers in certain 4-3 looks where there is only single-high coverage deep.
MIKE linebackers are the on-field coach of the front 7 and can dictate Safety coverages as well.
They are responsible for making sure everyone behind the DL is in place and ready to execute sudden shifts to confuse the offensive line. You'll often see very subtle hand motions, (at hip level), as the MIKE ILB waves off or brings up coverages, based on his read of the offense's set, and when calling the timing of any swing stunt blitzes the LBs have planned.
MIKE ILBs tend to be big, though not exclusively. 248#-255# is the weight range for them, as opposed to the low to middle 240#-ish range for OLBs in a 4-3 and the 255# or bigger range for OLBs in 3-4 defenses.
In certain 4-3 defenses, the MIKE ILB is actually the smaller guy, but usually only if the DTs are massive oaks growing roots and the DEs are also on the large side for 4-3 DEs, in the 265#-275# class.
In that type of 4-3 system, the MIKE or Middle Linebacker is the only guy to cover TEs and slot receivers across the middle, (with some Safety and nickle CB help), and must necessarily be fast - sideline to sideline fast - as well as have very good pass coverage skills.
MIKE linebackers tend to be the designated inside/delay run-blitzers in either system, and will use the TED ILB to clear a path for them.
WILL linebackers who are undersized, but fast, can make the switch to MIKE pretty easily but tend to not make the best run-stuffers or blitzers inside.
Last but not least we come to perhaps the most demanding linebackers spot.
WILL or ROLBs are the designated pass rushers in a 3-4 defense, against right-handed QBs.
WILL linebackers in both systems need speed, to get to the edge on the larger side of the offensive field, to cover Flanker/Split End WRs & the occasional weak side TE & out-route slot receiver in the shallow part of their routes, to get in front of RBs, (who tend to have slightly better foot speed than LBs by virtue of being smaller & lighter), on the weak side edge, and they still have pass-rush duties even in the 4-3.
3-4 "WILL" (ROLBs) ARE the pass rushers for that defensive system, yet STILL have to have all the other qualities of a 4-3 ROLB as well.
PLUS, 3-4 WILL OLBs need great agility to evade, undercut, and get around the outside of, the best blocking offensive lineman - the Left Tackle - on both run and pass plays.
WILL OLB is the premiere LB position in the NFL, regardless of system, and most of them command significantly higher salaries than other LBs, inside or out.
Long arms, height, and big wingspan, is a definite advantage for WILL LBs.
I haven't covered all the LB spots in great detail, that was just an overview - but I do hope it helps others to better understand the distinctions between the 4 LB positions.
David Harris is a MIKE ILB, incidentally.
J
Jet Setter
Guest
Thanks for the clarification except that I think you missed one aspect in that the 3-4 ILB Mike position is actually on the strong (run-heavy) side vice the weakside as you mentioned. I actually read your post. You explained their roles correctly, just listed them at the top in reverse.
Good stuff, Hyatt.
Good stuff, Hyatt.
Sorry, TED is lined up on the strong side inside of a 3-4 defense for purposes of TE coverage.
BUT, and perhaps HYATT™ should have used this caveat - that PRESUMES the TE lines up on the Strong Side.
As you well know, TEs these days line up all over the place, so the TED LB positioning at the snap is more dependent on where that TE is than any "on paper" labels.
You may be thinking of one of the many variations & I'm guessing you honed in on the "JACK" ILB, who lines up OUTSIDE of the WILL LB on occasion & right of the MIKE on others.
Another MIKE variation is the Cat & Dog - where the LBs from left to right are;
DOG - MIKE - WILL - CAT.
The Buddy (& Rob) Ryan 46 uses a different configuration, entirely reversed;
WILL - MIKE - TED - SAM
Usually 2 of the LBers were INSIDE on, or hanging over, a half yard off the LoS however.
So far as I know, Rex doesn't use the same LB set ups as his twin brother and father.
If you recall, Harris almost always lined up to the weak side inside, and I can't recall him ever being called a "TED" linebacker.
This isn't gospel Jet Setter, and regardless of HOW a particular 3-4 defense lines up SAM, TED, MIKE, & WILL, they do have distinct duties and those are usually as described by HYATT™ above - but in no way was it meant to infer that is the ONLY way 3-4 defenses can shake out LBs.
It is how it is done in Rex Ryan's system and in GB's Dom Capers' system, (and I presume Dick LaBeau's in PIT as well, since he and Dom are the godfathers of the FireZone Blitz 3-4 system).
Here's a page out of Dick LeBeau's Fire Zone Blitz playbook.
LeBeau uses the "B" (Blitz) designation for the "TED" linebacker & "EL" for the "WILL" linebacker.
Almost all of his plays have the TED linebacker to the left of the MIKE linebacker & in position to be the lede blitzer through the inside hole.
Since Dom & Dick are the 2 guys who brought the old 5-2 alignment into the new era and relabeled it the 3-4 defense, HYATT™ suggests they are the authority on nomenclature - not to say the ONLY authority, just the oldest and best known.
You can see more pages from LeBeau's playbook HERE.
Given this list accounting for Age,production and durability,and leadership I think Harris is not that overpaid if at all...
I agree. Just done tell 51 or Hobson I said so. However, i still feel a pass catching TE at $7 mill is a better use of money than a MLB. i stand by that statement.
S
sg3
Guest
Except if that TE is Clay who is a really bad TEI agree. Just done tell 51 or Hobson I said so. However, i still feel a pass catching TE at $7 mill is a better use of money than a MLB. i stand by that statement.
He's amongst the league leaders in drops already, and only played 23% of the snaps...he needs to get that cleaned up first.
At least for right now, all his drops are blamed on Geno, but he can't earn a reputation on that forever.
S
sg3
Guest
I'd waste my time responding, Mr. Know it all, but why bother....you'd have to get the last word in as you do on every single thread you derail.
So really not worth it. Besides, if I want to read how sensationally great the Pats, Dolphins and Bills are doing, I can just go to their fan message boards
I am a pretty smart bastard. I can't deny it. Thanks for the compliment. Feel free to go to their board, but like HYATT, I generally know more about their team than they do...but hearing things from their bias perspective may be entertaining also. Take a stroll.
Well, I honestly think you don't know the answer, so I'll share the answer.
Only 1 Jets TE has ever had 69 receptions...ever...Mickey Shuler, and he only did it three times, 1985 (76) and 1986 (69) and 1988 (70).
So Clay would already be amongst the Jets all time greatest tight ends if he was on our team...but as you said, he must be "really bad," because you know best.