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hobson54

Transition Tagged
Jet Fanatics
fwiw - i read this after i made my arguments above:

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bil...-sight-of-value-with-charles-clay-offer-sheet


Bills lose sight of value with Charles Clay offer sheet
March, 17, 2015
MAR 17
10:50
PM ET
By Mike Rodak | ESPN.com


Are the Buffalo Bills on the cutting edge of NFL economics or are they just reckless spenders?

That's the question that comes to mind when considering the Bills' five-year, $38 million offer sheet extended to free-agent tight end Charles Clay, whom the Miami Dolphins assigned the transition tag.

Yes, the Bills can afford the deal under their 2015 salary cap and, yes, the Bills should benefit from the projected growth of the NFL's cap over the next several years, making the contract more palatable.

But Buffalo's approach in crafting this offer runs counter to how smart teams typically build their rosters. It harkens back to how the Bills made Mario Williams the NFL's highest-paid defender in 2012 and how they dealt two first-round picks to acquire Sammy Watkins this past May.

In both cases, the justification for the high price was that it was necessary to bring both players to Buffalo. And in both cases, the exorbitant cost created high expectations that haven't always been met.

The ideal in the NFL is to find the defensive end who is worth $5 million but costs only $3 million, or to draft the receiver in the second round who is worth a first-round pick. That doesn't mean bargain shopping is the only way to win, but general mangers who understand value are often successful.

It's hard to find the value in this deal. Clay is a good tight end whose 2013 season (69 receptions for 759 yards and six touchdowns) is the closest he has come to justifying being the NFL's fourth-highest paid player at the position, which he would be if the Dolphins decline to match the Bills' offer.

But it's difficult to say Clay is worth $7.6 million per season, or that it's economical to pay him $20 million guaranteed. Regardless of whether that sort of money is necessary to lure him away from the Dolphins, it's overpaying for a player who must now meet inflated expectations.

Whether it's Williams or Watkins or Clay, the Bills aren't ill-intentioned in making these moves. Their goal is to make the playoffs as soon as possible, as it should be.

Yet what's lost in the shuffle is the concept of opportunity cost. By trading away their 2015 first-round pick to move up five spots for Watkins, the Bills lost their flexibility to trade that pick or use it on a player. By signing Clay for a richer deal than he's worth, the Bills are forgoing the chance to sign two players to deals for less than they are worth.

In the end, it might all work out for the Bills. Clay could be the missing piece they need to get to the playoffs, and he could be worth the cash the Bills are throwing his way. In that case, the Bills will have proven to be ahead of the curve.

But make no mistake about it, whether it's with Williams or Watkins or Clay, this isn't how smart teams typically do business.
 

cysporsche

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
Is the actual debate here Clay vs Harris, or Superman55 vs Hobson54 ? I'm not really sure why the debate between a TE & ILB anyway ?

Go Jets...Cyborg
 

Superman55

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
Bradley Fletcher - DB - Patriots
Patriots signed CB Bradley Fletcher, formerly of the Eagles, to a one-year, $2.5 million contract.
This is what the Pats get for letting Darrelle Revis and Brandon Browner fall through the cracks. Fletcher hasn't looked the same since tearing his ACL. He was dominated on a weekly basis with the Eagles, giving up three straight touchdowns to Dez Bryant in a Week 15 game last season. Pro Football Focus ranked him 92nd out of 108 qualified corners in 2014. Thankfully for the Pats, it's just a one-year deal.
 

Superman55

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
Is the actual debate here Clay vs Harris, or Superman55 vs Hobson54 ? I'm not really sure why the debate between a TE & ILB anyway ?

Go Jets...Cyborg

because the money is the same. If you had $7 mill to spend, would you spend it on a 31 year old Harris or a 26 year old pass catching TE? the money is the same, but I value a 26 year old pass catcher at $7 mill more than a 2 down MLB at $7 mill. People are saying Clay's money is "crazy money," but I consider paying a 2 down 31 year old MLB the same amount as Clay as crazy...
 

cysporsche

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
because the money is the same. If you had $7 mill to spend, would you spend it on a 31 year old Harris or a 26 year old pass catching TE? the money is the same, but I value a 26 year old pass catcher at $7 mill more than a 2 down MLB at $7 mill. People are saying Clay's money is "crazy money," but I consider paying a 2 down 31 year old MLB the same amount as Clay as crazy...

Kevin, Name a FA that has'nt been over-paid this off season. Yes we paid too much for Harris, Revis, Cromartie, Skeens, etc. etc.

Go Jets...Cyborg
 

hobson54

Transition Tagged
Jet Fanatics
because the money is the same. If you had $7 mill to spend, would you spend it on a 31 year old Harris or a 26 year old pass catching TE? the money is the same, but I value a 26 year old pass catcher at $7 mill more than a 2 down MLB at $7 mill. People are saying Clay's money is "crazy money," but I consider paying a 2 down 31 year old MLB the same amount as Clay as crazy...

it's almost the same money on an annual basis (clay is $7.6MM annually, harris is $7.16MM). however, one is a 5 year contract and one is a 3 year contract (and effectively a 2 year contract given the lack of guaranteed money after next year...i can't fully opine on clay's contract until after the details come out)
 

Superman55

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
fwiw - i read this after i made my arguments above:

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bil...-sight-of-value-with-charles-clay-offer-sheet


Bills lose sight of value with Charles Clay offer sheet
March, 17, 2015
MAR 17
10:50
PM ET
By Mike Rodak | ESPN.com


Are the Buffalo Bills on the cutting edge of NFL economics or are they just reckless spenders?

That's the question that comes to mind when considering the Bills' five-year, $38 million offer sheet extended to free-agent tight end Charles Clay, whom the Miami Dolphins assigned the transition tag.

Yes, the Bills can afford the deal under their 2015 salary cap and, yes, the Bills should benefit from the projected growth of the NFL's cap over the next several years, making the contract more palatable.

But Buffalo's approach in crafting this offer runs counter to how smart teams typically build their rosters. It harkens back to how the Bills made Mario Williams the NFL's highest-paid defender in 2012 and how they dealt two first-round picks to acquire Sammy Watkins this past May.

In both cases, the justification for the high price was that it was necessary to bring both players to Buffalo. And in both cases, the exorbitant cost created high expectations that haven't always been met.

The ideal in the NFL is to find the defensive end who is worth $5 million but costs only $3 million, or to draft the receiver in the second round who is worth a first-round pick. That doesn't mean bargain shopping is the only way to win, but general mangers who understand value are often successful.

It's hard to find the value in this deal. Clay is a good tight end whose 2013 season (69 receptions for 759 yards and six touchdowns) is the closest he has come to justifying being the NFL's fourth-highest paid player at the position, which he would be if the Dolphins decline to match the Bills' offer.

But it's difficult to say Clay is worth $7.6 million per season, or that it's economical to pay him $20 million guaranteed. Regardless of whether that sort of money is necessary to lure him away from the Dolphins, it's overpaying for a player who must now meet inflated expectations.

Whether it's Williams or Watkins or Clay, the Bills aren't ill-intentioned in making these moves. Their goal is to make the playoffs as soon as possible, as it should be.

Yet what's lost in the shuffle is the concept of opportunity cost. By trading away their 2015 first-round pick to move up five spots for Watkins, the Bills lost their flexibility to trade that pick or use it on a player. By signing Clay for a richer deal than he's worth, the Bills are forgoing the chance to sign two players to deals for less than they are worth.

In the end, it might all work out for the Bills. Clay could be the missing piece they need to get to the playoffs, and he could be worth the cash the Bills are throwing his way. In that case, the Bills will have proven to be ahead of the curve.

But make no mistake about it, whether it's with Williams or Watkins or Clay, this isn't how smart teams typically do business.

"The ideal in the NFL is to find the defensive end who is worth $5 million but costs only $3 million, or to draft the receiver in the second round who is worth a first-round pick. That doesn't mean bargain shopping is the only way to win, but general mangers who understand value are often successful."

"In the end, it might all work out for the Bills. Clay could be the missing piece they need to get to the playoffs, and he could be worth the cash the Bills are throwing his way. In that case, the Bills will have proven to be ahead of the curve.

But make no mistake about it, whether it's with Williams or Watkins or Clay, this isn't how smart teams typically do business."

There's a lot going on in this article, and a lot of good points. Thanks for sharing.

1) the Sammy Watkins trade was terrible. No arguments here. Who trades 2 1s for a 6'0 WR? You don't. Im not arguing that terrible deal...lumping in Clay with the Sammy Watkins trade feels like piling on. What does signing Clay have to do with Sammy?

2) The statement that your ideal is you pay $3 mill for $5 mill talent is just that, an ideal. A 26 year old needs to maximize his earning potential, not everyone is going to sign for a steal like Cliff Avril every year. When the cap is going up $30 mill over 3 years...so are salaries. By this time next year, Clay may be the 8th highest paid TE...then his money wont be crazy. Would we have liked Revis for $10 mill instead of $14...yes, that would be ideal...dumb statement.

3) That isn't how good teams do business? Did Graham just become a Seahawk and Revis and Browner sign for $20 mill/year to help the Pats win the super bowl? Did I miss something or did the broncos sign Demarcus Ware, TJ Ward, and Talib to try and win the super bowl? Have the eagles been saying players and picks in every direction to try and get the super bowl? I think he is talking about how teams used to try and win the super bowl...but even teams like the Ravens are making moves for Dumerville and the packers for Peppers. Not every team sits on their hands like the steelers any more, the Ravens, Packers, and Pats have all loosened their purse strings the last few years to make runs, I dont agree that isnt the approach any more.

4) mario Williams deal like the Sammy deal, doesnt have anything to do with the Clay deal.

Clay needed a unique contract to get him past the transition tag...or Miami would match...so they over spent a little...maybe he's a $6 mill/year TE making 7.3 mill, but they feel he's worth it to get him out of Miami. Fine, it's not the same as Super Mario's $100 mill deal. Compare that to Suh's contract if you want, but not Clay's.

5) this feels like a post about not agreeing with the GM, more than a breakdown of Clay. They feel they over spent, I dont disagree, but on a much smaller scale that led on...just like we may have over spent for 31 year olds Cromartie and Harris for the same money as the Bills paid for a 26 year old... I'd rather over spend on 26 than 31...
 

Football51

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
it's almost the same money on an annual basis (clay is $7.6MM annually, harris is $7.16MM). however, one is a 5 year contract and one is a 3 year contract (and effectively a 2 year contract given the lack of guaranteed money after next year...i can't fully opine on clay's contract until after the details come out)




Vic Carucci @viccarucci · 4m4 minutes ago

More on the #Bills' offer sheet to TE Charles Clay: $24.5 million over the first 2 years.




That's Gronk/Graham money over the first two seasons. He's not on that level, offers nothing as a blocker, and has durability issues. Not to mention that for a team that will run the ball an insane amount of time, he seems like nothing more than a luxury.
 

Superman55

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
Kevin, Name a FA that has'nt been over-paid this off season. Yes we paid too much for Harris, Revis, Cromartie, Skeens, etc. etc.

Go Jets...Cyborg

But if you're going to "over spend," do you over spend on early 30s or mid 20s?

I over spend on mid 20s.
 

Superman55

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
Vic Carucci @viccarucci · 4m4 minutes ago

More on the #Bills' offer sheet to TE Charles Clay: $24.5 million over the first 2 years.




That's Gronk/Graham money over the first two seasons. He's not on that level, offers nothing as a blocker, and has durability issues. Not to mention that for a team that will run the ball an insane amount of time, he seems like nothing more than a luxury.

He's making Gronk money? gronk makes over $9 mill per, Jimmy Graham makes $10 mill, so Clay makes 25% less /season than those guys. Not that facts are important in this debate...
 

hobson54

Transition Tagged
Jet Fanatics
But if you're going to "over spend," do you over spend on early 30s or mid 20s?

I over spend on mid 20s.


generally speaking yes. but it also depends on the respective players and contracts.

the jets are tied to harris for 2 years only. after that, they can release him at zero cost.

clay now has the 4th highest contract (aggregate) for a TE in the league, behind gronk, graham and thomas. do you think he belongs in that class?

we don't know the full details of his contract structure tying him to the bills, so i can't really compare how long the teams are tied into the players (i.e. when they can cut bait without severely adverse cap consequences). 51 posted above it is front-loaded (i had seen they loaded up 2016 to make it a poison pill that miami can't match due to their own cap situation in '16). if it is large guaranteed salary and not big signing bonuses, then they also may be able to get out of it after 2 years with little adverse impact.
 

Superman55

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
generally speaking yes. but it also depends on the respective players and contracts.

the jets are tied to harris for 2 years only. after that, they can release him at zero cost.

clay now has the 4th highest contract (aggregate) for a TE in the league, behind gronk, graham and thomas. do you think he belongs in that class?

we don't know the full details of his contract structure tying him to the bills, so i can't really compare how long the teams are tied into the players (i.e. when they can cut bait without severely adverse cap consequences). 51 posted above it is front-loaded (i had seen they loaded up 2016 to make it a poison pill that miami can't match due to their own cap situation in '16). if it is large guaranteed salary and not big signing bonuses, then they also may be able to get out of it after 2 years with little adverse impact.

I thought the same thing with $24 mill in the first 2 years, seems like they can get out after 2 years; but to your point, no way of telling until the full contract details get out. I googled and searched and cant find them anywhere.
 

cysporsche

Pro Bowl 1st Team
Jet Fanatics
But if you're going to "over spend," do you over spend on early 30s or mid 20s?

I over spend on mid 20s.

You know my answer here, because I've been preaching before FA started to get, younger, faster & cheaper. We have gone from one of the youngest teams in the NFL to one of the older teams just this off-season.

Go Jets...Cyborg
 

Superman55

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
The first TWO YEARS.

Oh, so we're doing year by year evaluations of his contract to justify the side of a debate? Very tricky, 51. :) How about year 3, not year 2, when he makes $5 mill per and gronk and graham are now making 100% more than Clay... for 2 years of the deal, he's a top paid TE, for 3 years of his deal, he's paid like an average TE...so 2 year's he's paid like a great TE, 3 years he's paid like an average TE, we all agree he's a good TE (i.e. somewhere in the middle)...so his contract seems appropriate...:)
 

Football51

Franchise Tagged
Jet Fanatics
Oh, so we're doing year by year evaluations of his contract to justify the side of a debate? Very tricky, 51. :) How about year 3, not year 2, when he makes $5 mill per and gronk and graham are now making 100% more than Clay... for 2 years of the deal, he's a top paid TE, for 3 years of his deal, he's paid like an average TE...so 2 year's he's paid like a great TE, 3 years he's paid like an average TE, we all agree he's a good TE (i.e. somewhere in the middle)...so his contract seems appropriate...:)



He may be cut after year two. The contract was structured this way to get him out of Miami. In doing so, they are paying him like Gronk/Graham in 2015 & 2016.
 

jetfandreamer

Jets Groupie
Jet Fanatics
fwiw - i read this after i made my arguments above:

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bil...-sight-of-value-with-charles-clay-offer-sheet


Bills lose sight of value with Charles Clay offer sheet
March, 17, 2015
MAR 17
10:50
PM ET
By Mike Rodak | ESPN.com


Are the Buffalo Bills on the cutting edge of NFL economics or are they just reckless spenders?

That's the question that comes to mind when considering the Bills' five-year, $38 million offer sheet extended to free-agent tight end Charles Clay, whom the Miami Dolphins assigned the transition tag.

Yes, the Bills can afford the deal under their 2015 salary cap and, yes, the Bills should benefit from the projected growth of the NFL's cap over the next several years, making the contract more palatable.

But Buffalo's approach in crafting this offer runs counter to how smart teams typically build their rosters. It harkens back to how the Bills made Mario Williams the NFL's highest-paid defender in 2012 and how they dealt two first-round picks to acquire Sammy Watkins this past May.

In both cases, the justification for the high price was that it was necessary to bring both players to Buffalo. And in both cases, the exorbitant cost created high expectations that haven't always been met.

The ideal in the NFL is to find the defensive end who is worth $5 million but costs only $3 million, or to draft the receiver in the second round who is worth a first-round pick. That doesn't mean bargain shopping is the only way to win, but general mangers who understand value are often successful.

It's hard to find the value in this deal. Clay is a good tight end whose 2013 season (69 receptions for 759 yards and six touchdowns) is the closest he has come to justifying being the NFL's fourth-highest paid player at the position, which he would be if the Dolphins decline to match the Bills' offer.

But it's difficult to say Clay is worth $7.6 million per season, or that it's economical to pay him $20 million guaranteed. Regardless of whether that sort of money is necessary to lure him away from the Dolphins, it's overpaying for a player who must now meet inflated expectations.

Whether it's Williams or Watkins or Clay, the Bills aren't ill-intentioned in making these moves. Their goal is to make the playoffs as soon as possible, as it should be.

Yet what's lost in the shuffle is the concept of opportunity cost. By trading away their 2015 first-round pick to move up five spots for Watkins, the Bills lost their flexibility to trade that pick or use it on a player. By signing Clay for a richer deal than he's worth, the Bills are forgoing the chance to sign two players to deals for less than they are worth.

In the end, it might all work out for the Bills. Clay could be the missing piece they need to get to the playoffs, and he could be worth the cash the Bills are throwing his way. In that case, the Bills will have proven to be ahead of the curve.

But make no mistake about it, whether it's with Williams or Watkins or Clay, this isn't how smart teams typically do business.

Scott chandler was/is a decent TE..for money..not much of an upgrade
 
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