#6 pick in 2015 - Jets select Leonard Williams DT USC
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Its hard to use numbers to set a performance expectation for a defensive lineman. Both Mo & Sheldon had less than 4 sacks and around 40 tackles as rookies. I would like to see him earn the starting DE spot vacated by Sheldon in September and be disruptive enough to be a regular part of the rotation over the last 12 games.
Did you mean this season or for his career? Unfortunately for his career, he has to be at least borderline HOF player, or it will be a bad pick, IMO. The two guys ready there are borderline HOFs, and drafting williams makes it less likely all 3 stay, and Mo and Sheldon baring injury and self destruction will be borderline HOFers...so he has to be too, or we drafted him for nothing but to regress in talent at the position, and that's unacceptable...and will begin the Mac train out of town.
i don't agree with this assessment that he needs to be borderline HOF or it was a bad pick. drafting him or not, it seems the jets were gonna have a challenge keeping both mo and richardson. and this was before richardson couldn't keep his hands off the pot, so that self-destruction thing is already happening with him (and maybe the jets had some insight into his behavior when they decided to pick williams). drafting williams gives the jets optionality at the position. for all we know, they could have passed on williams, taken white or someone else, and still not have been able to lock up mo and richardson long term. so i don't see how mo or richardson being HOF caliber players (which is quite a bold prediction for guys with 4/2 years in the league) means williams needs to be HOF worthy or bust.
now if kevin white or someone else we passed on turn into a HOF WR, then maybe you can say that williams needs to reach that level to not be a bad pick. but that's an awfully high bar to set for any player.
Was the bar placed on Luck, drafted to replace Manning? if you're drafted to replace player 'x,' it is always an unfair tough spot...but the bar is high.
For Williams, he's being asked to replace a 26 year old Shaun Ellis essentially (though I think Mo and Sheldon are both better than Ellis)...so the expectations from Williams and fans should be he is at least as good as the 26 year old he'd be replacing. It may not be fair to the player, but I feel that should be the expectation of the fans.
As to your second point...I never look at it that way. You always miss a HOFer with every pick, right? In rd 3 we drafted a guy, player X, I bet someplace between rd 4-7 a HOF was drafted. It is what it is. This example is we have 2 studs in their early 20s and we took a 3rd knowing what you said...it may be hard to keep both.
But it's not impossible and the cap is set up so the jets could easily resign Sheldon and Mo...EASILY...especially since we have little to no big time players competing for the remaining cap space. Even Mangold and Brick's deal will have run their course by then.
If the Jets didnt draft Williams, I have zero doubts Sheldon and Mo would have been resigned. Now there are doubts though, so expectations are through the ceiling for Williams...and should be, or dont make the pick.
...and dont sell me horse shit that if he's as good as Douzable you're okay with taking that level of talent #6 overall. That's not okay.
Just like if we drafted White and he only turned into Jeremy Kerley good, that isn't good enough. You don't draft borderline starters top 10, he needs to be an impact player, or it was a swing and miss, IMO.
i know you think you are infallible in your thoughts, but why do you think they could have EASILY signed mo and richardson? do you not hear richardson saying he's the best player in the league, or something to that degree? do you think richardson will take anything less than jj watt money? is that an EASY signing for any team to make? how about the fact the richardson now is a puff away from the josh gordon 1-year ban? are you so sure that we could have kept the band together, if only macc didn't screw it up by taking williams?
as to williams, can you show me where i said he only needs to be as good as douazable to be worth the 6th pick? not sure why you would even make that comment? i agree the bar should be high for the 6th pick of the draft. but to say he needs to be a HOF caliber player or he's effectively a bust is an unreasonably high standard to set.
Richardson would have been hard to resign and now he might end up out of the league in two years. Williams was the right pick whether he is a HOF or not.
IMO, it's too premature to place the HOF label on Williams, Richardson or Mo ? Let's see a couple of seasons as All-Pro first before you put them in Canton.
Go Jets...Cyborg
Williams and Sheldon would be like Brick and Mangold...the only 2 big contract home grown talent on the roster...with no franchise QB and 160+ cap number...I dont understand why $25 mill annual expense to these two would be that hard. Who else on the roster will be getting big money when they are? I dont see the other $12-15 mill player on our roster in 3 years....Revis maybe...but in 3 years will be be a $15 mill per year player? Probably not.
if Detroit can fit Calvin, Stafford, and Suh's monster deals on their books...I dont understand why Jets fans think Mo and Sheldon would be that hard, especially with Sheldon 1 strike away from 1 year suspension and 2 strikes from lifetime boot...he cant get Suh money now...he and his agent know it.
I said he needs to be an impact player that is at least Shaun Ellis...sorry you feel a player taken #6 that is expecting too much. But I have high standards.
Ellis only made 2 pro bowls...I dont feel like that's asking much at all.
What if Williams is Gholston 2.0? I know. It's impossible...but what if he is and we lose Sheldon and/or Mo? We'll look back and say, we should have just signed the known commodities...and why did we draft another gholston if we already had Mo and Sheldon? Right or wrong?
Also, what if we did sign Sheldon to Suh money despite all the flags...ummm, who else on our roster is getting paid big money...oh, it would have been just Mo and Revis...
Mo and Sheldon's COMBINED contracts would = 1 franchise QB...like Peyton Manning. Oh wait, somehow Denver still as the following on their roster Talib, Ware, Ward, Emmanuel Sanders, Coady, Von Miller, D. Thomas, etc, etc, etc.
Oh, and you may get creative and say Sheldon and Mo doesn't equal Manning, but Manning gets $25 mill a year, Sheldon and Mo would get 12-15 (i.e. what Justin Houston signed for today)...wait,m wait, wait...12 + 12 equals...
i.e. EASY.
Jets have plenty of room to sign Wilk and Sheldon....easy.
The word used was borderline HOF...like Shaun Ellis...that's what was said...and Ellis aint sniffing Canton, especially if Joe cant get in.
it would be nice if you actually read people's posts (or your own for that matter). you were the one who said something to the degree that i am ok with a leger douzable type of player at #6 . i asked where you were getting that from and also said that the bar should be high for the #6 pick. seems you are just making straw man arguments for the sake of arguing.
shaun ellis is probably a reasonable level of expectation for williams. i think he could be even better, but that's just baseless speculation. as you've said, ellis is nowhere near HOF caliber (not even borderline), so again i reiterate my comment that expecting any draftee to be borderline HOF caliber or a bust is unreasonable.
as to detroit fitting all those guys in, perhaps you've missed it, but they just lost suh. and detroit has won squat, so using the lions (or dolphins) approach to roster building probably isn't the best recipe for success.
sheldon wants to be paid like watt or suh or now houston. to think it is easy to fit he and mo into a roster and field a competitive team (especially if we don't have an elite QB) is not so obvious. i'm sure it can be done and i'd like to keep them both. but the realities of the nfl make it hard to assume that just signing mo and richardson would have been EASY.
Well, instead of easy, it's now pointless, because we have williams. Which has been my only complaint FrOm the beginning. I bet the Jets don't even try to pay them both...at least not close to market value. At least before him they "may" have tried.
So you don't think he needs to be as good as Sheldon or Mo knowing 1 is very likely to be gone soon, maybe both?
i'll take your ignoring my point about you making straw man arguments as you conceding you were wrong to do such...
as to mo and richardson, it is my contention that it never was gonna be easy to keep both. mo i think would have been the easier sign, and i still expect him to eventually reach a long-term deal with the jets. but the jets still control him for at least this year and next, so it needs to play out before we can say he is gone.
as to richardson, the hand-writing has been on the wall that he was never gonna be an easy signing. he wants to be paid like suh and watt (probably more given he can't even get a deal until next year at the soonest). so that was never gonna be easy, especially given how great he thinks he is (and don't get me wrong, he is a fantastic player).
as to your point above about 1 of them may be gone, MAYBE BOTH, if you think it's possible BOTH are gone, than your implication that it has to do with williams being drafted goes out the window. williams could theoretically replace 1. he can't replace BOTH. so the fact you think BOTH could be gone means it is independent from the drafting of williams. which kind of has been my point all along.
adding to this drama of course is mr richardson finding himself facing a 4-game suspension and one puff away from a year's time-out. for a guy that wants to be paid among the highest in the league, that sure is a huge risk for a team to take to give him that much coin and risk possibly seeing him smoke his career away. i'm sure contracts can be structured to protect the team in such scenario, but it still does not make for an EASY negotiation with a guy who wants to be paid among the top players in the league.
i guess in the end, you see williams being drafting as leading to the inevitable loss of mo or richardson. i see it as giving the jets protection in case they inevitably lose one of mo or richardson, a possibility which i think is possible, but no more so than before the draft. if we drafted kevin white, i still think it was gonna be tough to keep both mo and richardson.
I think the jets would have tried harder to make it happen, but the players would have had more leverage. I still dont agree the jets cap situation would have been that difficult to manage to sign both with the lack of talent on this roster that would demand big deals...even Decker's "mega deal" is 4-5 mill a year less than #1 wrs are getting...meaning he's being paid what a top #2 would get paid...i.e. what he is.
Your point on how hard it would be to sign both would seem more realistic to me if the Jets had anyone they were paying. Right now it is Revis, Mangold, and Brick...Decker and some others making mid tier money, abut very few high priced cap players...almost just 1 right now.
So you're making the argument it is hard to pay 3 players over 10 mill a year with a 160 mill cap just doesnt make sense to me at all...especially when your roster only has 3 players of that level, how can you risk losing 1 of your only 3 good players? You shouldn't .
All the teams in the play-offs have 8-10 players of that level, and we're worried about 3...should have been a piece of cake.
God, its rough having the Jets, even their fans, sound like Jags, Bucs, Raiders, and Rams...worried we cant have 3 good players while the Packers, Pats, Broncos, Seattle, Ravens, Steelers, etc, etc, etc sign 8-10 players of Wilkersons level with no problem. Too bad really.
actually my comments about how it may be hard to sign both long-term had nothing to do with the ability to fit them both under the cap. it had to do with whether or not the jets were willing to meet the asking prices of mo, and the likely extremely high price of richardson, who seems clear that he wants suh/watt type money, if not more.
i don't doubt the team could work both under the cap. i question whether they will want to pay richardson the money i think richardson will be demanding, especially with his baggage. kind of like detroit decided to pass on keeping suh.
i don't doubt the team could work both under the cap. i question whether they will want to pay richardson the money i think richardson will be demanding, especially with his baggage. kind of like detroit decided to pass on keeping suh.
Im more open to losing him now than I was before the suspension. I dont think he's a Josh Gordon...but Gordon got a 1 year suspension for drinking with his teammates...Richardson doesn't have to fail anything any more, he can miss a test, be late for a test, it doesn't even have to be an illegal drug anymore. It can just be beer (what Gordon was suspended for).
I still feel Williams has to be the real deal for us...
I still feel Williams has to be the real deal for us...
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flgreen
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Good post
http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2015/07/leonard_williams_has_impressed_jets_defensive_line.html
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